Meat and dairy are not essential, but food is essential.
The biggest problem is the supply chain and food deserts, I have 34 different grocery stores within a 1km walk of my house, this doesn’t even include the fresh market and the 50 something stall holders.
Meat and dairy will never be essential for me, I have so many options that are actually cheaper and easier.
But the shop that services the 50km radius around my dad’s place is lucky to have a tin of beans that isn’t Heinz in tomato let alone a tin of beans at all. I’ll talk about how cheap it is to feed my family on a $2/250g of dried chickpeas and $1 bag of assorted leafy greens, and my dad will send me a photo of the IGA shelf where the 400g tin of lentils is $4 a can and the tuna is $1.50, so I know what my dad’s having for dinner.
I’m not familiar with food deserts, but wouldn’t it be possible to order dried and tinned foods in bulk every few months to get more reasonable prices?
It would be possible, yes, and hopefully those that can, do.
Buying in bulk will require you to have some money in savings to pay for a huge amount of groceries up front, not everyone can afford that.
It also requires you to have storage for bulk items, my dad does, but I know it’s not always possible, especially for those living in caravan parks.
It requires you to have transportation to and from depot yards, as bulk orders can’t always be taken to the post office depending on how big you are going, my dad does, but me for example, that’s why I left the country, I’m too blind to drive so I was pretty helpless in woop woop.
But the biggest reason it’s not always possible:
Orders you make as an individual are subject to the same transportation costs as larger wholesale orders placed by local businesses. It’s the same single freight train coming in each month, you might save a few bucks cutting out the profits of the local grocer, but not by a significant amount.
As an individual, your order will be also be the first to get bumped for space if there’s any issues with the train. My dad orders a lot of his dried pantry staple food, since he has to place bulk orders for animal feed anyway, he might as well get his flour brought in with the same shipments. Over Christmas there was so much flooding across the lines that the grocery stores couldn’t get their order to feed the entire towns fortnight worth of food, let alone my dad getting his slab of tinned peas for personal use. My dad got given the same purchase limits as everyone else in town and he got what he was given.
It’s a food desert because there is simply no food, it’s a desert.
There’s industry, there’s economy, there’s housing and schools and possibly even a vibrant community. But as far as food goes, it’s a barren wasteland because the supply chain doesn’t link up to these areas, not for big corporations with stores in these towns, not for individuals trying to order groceries on line. The boats don’t dock there, The trains don’t stop there, the trucks don’t unload there.
Sometimes it makes sense - my dad lives in the middle of bum fuck nowhere, a lot of FIFO related work but not much for locals so it makes sense there’s no infrastructure to bring food in. I know towns in even more remote places that get all their food via a single sea plane (at least my dad’s town has a rail line), and when that sea plane needs maintenance, no one can get in or out of the town.
But most food deserts are geopolitical. The food exists, people are willing to get it there, but something (money, power, politics, war) means the food can’t physically get where it needs to be.
Even something as simple as a local farmer having a contract with a supermarket, and that supermarkets competitor being the first to build a store in the town, that could cause a food desert, as the local supermarket can’t buy from the local farmer, because that farmer is stuck in a supplier contract with a completely different supermarket that doesn’t even have a store nearby yet, and they may never get a local store, because look at how badly that current supermarket is struggling in that location, seems risky to open a new store there.
Thanks for the elaborate response. It’s interesting how different considerations are at such remote places. Here in Germany, a place is generally considered “in the middle of nowhere” when the nearest small town is like 10 km away, and a 20 minute drive to the next supermarket is exceptional.
The cultural differences between rural and urban regions here seem enormous already, I can’t even imagine what it’s like in the US.
cultural differences between rural and urban regions
It’s honestly fascinating how culture, transport infrastructure and public mobility effects our perceptions of urban/rural as well as distances in general.
In Australia we’re more likely to use time as a measurement for distance, because 20km in the country takes 10 minutes because you’re the only car for miles and you can blast 110km/h from end to end, but travelling 20km could easily take 40 minutes in city traffic. So “how far is the restaurant?” “15 minutes” is a perfectly normal conversation, but in some cultures giving someone a time when they asked for a distance would be baffling.
And I notice this doesn’t change based on mode of transport, I don’t drive but it’s the same conversation, you just might clarify the method of transport as if it’s also a unit of measurement.
Telling my cousins in the UK “when I visit in August, I’m going to visit Aunt Julie for breakfast, then take the train to see Uncle Bob, the next day I’ll head up to see Dave” and they get shocked with me “are you crazy, that’s 300km! You’re only here for the weekend”.
But growing up, my house was 70km from my highschool, travelling 140km per day was normal - and I never even left greater Melbourne! so 300km over a long weekend to explore a whole country is not “crazy”.
For the last 8 years I’ve lived in one of the more bikeable and walkable areas I’ve ever encountered, and my perception of distance has completely changed. It now feels “a big trip” to have to have to take motor transport anywhere. I had to grab a huge parcel from the post office for work, my boss just shoved me in an uber for the 2km, a 5 minute journey. we needed another pick up about 2km in the other direction. It was going to fit in a backpack so I jumped on my bike. Both trips took roughly the exact same amount of time and covered almost the same distance and the uber took less physical and mental effort, but the trip to the post office felt like a big planned errand, while zipping out on the bike felt like a fun side quest.
But once I’m in the car with my partner and we’ve already been driving for 10 minutes, suddenly distances in cars don’t exist to me and I revert to my pre-bike country perception of distances. it’s like “oh let’s get fish and chips from the store we like that’s 20km away, then drive 15km to the beach esplanade we prefer” instead of just cycling 8km to the local chippy and espie which is what I’d be doing without a partner who drives.
I have seen this same argument on Lemmy multiple times: poor people should be happy to live on beans and rice rather than have any form of animal protein, even if it tastes really good to them.
I’m not in favor of farming animals on an industrial scale, but I also hate this whole idea that poor people should be satisfied with bland, restrictive diets while the rich can eat whatever the hell they want.
400g of cooked lentils is $4 at the IGA near my dad. That’s 2 RDI servings.
I can get a 400g tin for about 80c in the city where I live, but I can also get 250g of dried lentils for $2-3, which will easily give me 1kg of cooked lentils.
The tuna is only a 110g can for $1.50, one RDI serving.
Both the tinned tuna and tinned lentils contain a lot of water weight, which is why I’m focused on “per serving”, where the tuna is cheaper.
I’m not arguing that protein per gram per cent, the dry lentils are always cheaper, but they litteraly don’t sell dried lentils at the shop near my dad.
That’s what I’m saying, food deserts are strange places where import costs, supplier contracts and shipping logistics means that lentils are expensive and tuna is comparatively “cheap”. Just 250km away lentils are a pittance and tuna is a reasonable expected price. ($1.50 for 100g of tinned tuna is average almost everywhere across metropolitan areas in Australia from my quick look at swapping my postcode around on woolworths, small town IGA is harder to check because they’re independent, so I’ve only got my local metro IGA and my father’s remote IGA as reference. My local metropolitan IGA price matches Coles and Woolworths pretty closely, but it’s the wild west once you’re out malee)
The idea that food is the price it is and that’s the price to expect everywhere is how small communities in food deserts end up slipping through the cracks when grocery prices shift in either direction in larger population centres.
Meat and dairy are not essential, but food is essential.
The biggest problem is the supply chain and food deserts, I have 34 different grocery stores within a 1km walk of my house, this doesn’t even include the fresh market and the 50 something stall holders.
Meat and dairy will never be essential for me, I have so many options that are actually cheaper and easier.
But the shop that services the 50km radius around my dad’s place is lucky to have a tin of beans that isn’t Heinz in tomato let alone a tin of beans at all. I’ll talk about how cheap it is to feed my family on a $2/250g of dried chickpeas and $1 bag of assorted leafy greens, and my dad will send me a photo of the IGA shelf where the 400g tin of lentils is $4 a can and the tuna is $1.50, so I know what my dad’s having for dinner.
I’m not familiar with food deserts, but wouldn’t it be possible to order dried and tinned foods in bulk every few months to get more reasonable prices?
It would be possible, yes, and hopefully those that can, do.
Buying in bulk will require you to have some money in savings to pay for a huge amount of groceries up front, not everyone can afford that.
It also requires you to have storage for bulk items, my dad does, but I know it’s not always possible, especially for those living in caravan parks.
It requires you to have transportation to and from depot yards, as bulk orders can’t always be taken to the post office depending on how big you are going, my dad does, but me for example, that’s why I left the country, I’m too blind to drive so I was pretty helpless in woop woop.
But the biggest reason it’s not always possible: Orders you make as an individual are subject to the same transportation costs as larger wholesale orders placed by local businesses. It’s the same single freight train coming in each month, you might save a few bucks cutting out the profits of the local grocer, but not by a significant amount.
As an individual, your order will be also be the first to get bumped for space if there’s any issues with the train. My dad orders a lot of his dried pantry staple food, since he has to place bulk orders for animal feed anyway, he might as well get his flour brought in with the same shipments. Over Christmas there was so much flooding across the lines that the grocery stores couldn’t get their order to feed the entire towns fortnight worth of food, let alone my dad getting his slab of tinned peas for personal use. My dad got given the same purchase limits as everyone else in town and he got what he was given.
It’s a food desert because there is simply no food, it’s a desert.
There’s industry, there’s economy, there’s housing and schools and possibly even a vibrant community. But as far as food goes, it’s a barren wasteland because the supply chain doesn’t link up to these areas, not for big corporations with stores in these towns, not for individuals trying to order groceries on line. The boats don’t dock there, The trains don’t stop there, the trucks don’t unload there.
Sometimes it makes sense - my dad lives in the middle of bum fuck nowhere, a lot of FIFO related work but not much for locals so it makes sense there’s no infrastructure to bring food in. I know towns in even more remote places that get all their food via a single sea plane (at least my dad’s town has a rail line), and when that sea plane needs maintenance, no one can get in or out of the town.
But most food deserts are geopolitical. The food exists, people are willing to get it there, but something (money, power, politics, war) means the food can’t physically get where it needs to be.
Even something as simple as a local farmer having a contract with a supermarket, and that supermarkets competitor being the first to build a store in the town, that could cause a food desert, as the local supermarket can’t buy from the local farmer, because that farmer is stuck in a supplier contract with a completely different supermarket that doesn’t even have a store nearby yet, and they may never get a local store, because look at how badly that current supermarket is struggling in that location, seems risky to open a new store there.
Thanks for the elaborate response. It’s interesting how different considerations are at such remote places. Here in Germany, a place is generally considered “in the middle of nowhere” when the nearest small town is like 10 km away, and a 20 minute drive to the next supermarket is exceptional.
The cultural differences between rural and urban regions here seem enormous already, I can’t even imagine what it’s like in the US.
It’s honestly fascinating how culture, transport infrastructure and public mobility effects our perceptions of urban/rural as well as distances in general.
In Australia we’re more likely to use time as a measurement for distance, because 20km in the country takes 10 minutes because you’re the only car for miles and you can blast 110km/h from end to end, but travelling 20km could easily take 40 minutes in city traffic. So “how far is the restaurant?” “15 minutes” is a perfectly normal conversation, but in some cultures giving someone a time when they asked for a distance would be baffling.
And I notice this doesn’t change based on mode of transport, I don’t drive but it’s the same conversation, you just might clarify the method of transport as if it’s also a unit of measurement.
Telling my cousins in the UK “when I visit in August, I’m going to visit Aunt Julie for breakfast, then take the train to see Uncle Bob, the next day I’ll head up to see Dave” and they get shocked with me “are you crazy, that’s 300km! You’re only here for the weekend”.
But growing up, my house was 70km from my highschool, travelling 140km per day was normal - and I never even left greater Melbourne! so 300km over a long weekend to explore a whole country is not “crazy”.
For the last 8 years I’ve lived in one of the more bikeable and walkable areas I’ve ever encountered, and my perception of distance has completely changed. It now feels “a big trip” to have to have to take motor transport anywhere. I had to grab a huge parcel from the post office for work, my boss just shoved me in an uber for the 2km, a 5 minute journey. we needed another pick up about 2km in the other direction. It was going to fit in a backpack so I jumped on my bike. Both trips took roughly the exact same amount of time and covered almost the same distance and the uber took less physical and mental effort, but the trip to the post office felt like a big planned errand, while zipping out on the bike felt like a fun side quest.
But once I’m in the car with my partner and we’ve already been driving for 10 minutes, suddenly distances in cars don’t exist to me and I revert to my pre-bike country perception of distances. it’s like “oh let’s get fish and chips from the store we like that’s 20km away, then drive 15km to the beach esplanade we prefer” instead of just cycling 8km to the local chippy and espie which is what I’d be doing without a partner who drives.
Because both would take about an hour…
454g of cooked beans or lentils is about $1.34.
Show me where 400g of tuna is $1.50. Also, a lot of that weight is water, 25% or more.
Google tells me 400g of tuna is 112g of protein.
Lentils clocks in at 36g
Beans are all over the place. Some seen pretty good for protein tbh. Never heard of winged beans before.
If I needed to be that cheap, why should I care to live?
I have seen this same argument on Lemmy multiple times: poor people should be happy to live on beans and rice rather than have any form of animal protein, even if it tastes really good to them.
I’m not in favor of farming animals on an industrial scale, but I also hate this whole idea that poor people should be satisfied with bland, restrictive diets while the rich can eat whatever the hell they want.
Yeah! I’m not in favor of farming people!
400g of canned tuna is 75g of protein, you looked up fresh most likely, not canned which contains lots of water.
Ya’ll are ridiculous.
Who the fuck said anything about canned? YOU are ridiculous.
Fish is 80% water
I’m pretty sure vegetables are mostly water too.
Huh?
400g of cooked lentils is $4 at the IGA near my dad. That’s 2 RDI servings.
I can get a 400g tin for about 80c in the city where I live, but I can also get 250g of dried lentils for $2-3, which will easily give me 1kg of cooked lentils.
The tuna is only a 110g can for $1.50, one RDI serving.
Both the tinned tuna and tinned lentils contain a lot of water weight, which is why I’m focused on “per serving”, where the tuna is cheaper.
I’m not arguing that protein per gram per cent, the dry lentils are always cheaper, but they litteraly don’t sell dried lentils at the shop near my dad.
Your prices are whack. You have the cheapest tuna in the world, yet the most expensive beans in the world.
That’s what I’m saying, food deserts are strange places where import costs, supplier contracts and shipping logistics means that lentils are expensive and tuna is comparatively “cheap”. Just 250km away lentils are a pittance and tuna is a reasonable expected price. ($1.50 for 100g of tinned tuna is average almost everywhere across metropolitan areas in Australia from my quick look at swapping my postcode around on woolworths, small town IGA is harder to check because they’re independent, so I’ve only got my local metro IGA and my father’s remote IGA as reference. My local metropolitan IGA price matches Coles and Woolworths pretty closely, but it’s the wild west once you’re out malee)
The idea that food is the price it is and that’s the price to expect everywhere is how small communities in food deserts end up slipping through the cracks when grocery prices shift in either direction in larger population centres.