• acargitz@lemmy.ca
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      31
      ·
      edit-2
      19 days ago

      By dismantling the apartheid, ending the occupation, getting the fuck on their side of their 1967 border, and recognizing the sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza. Plus, by handing over their war criminals to the ICC and starting a Truth and Reconciliation process. Throw in paying reparations, if they really want peace.

      There. Instantly, 90% of Hamas and Hezbollah support has just evaporated. Their neighbours are ready to normalize relations with them. The vast majority of world public opinion is now solidly behind them.

      • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        9
        ·
        19 days ago

        I’d be quite fine with most of this, all of it if by “the occupation” you mean the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. But, until peace is established there, that isn’t going to happen. The majority of Gazans support Hamas and believe they committed no atrocities on October 7th.

        • acargitz@lemmy.ca
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          11
          ·
          edit-2
          19 days ago

          if by “the occupation” you mean the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank

          Yes, exactly. Including the control of their borders of course.

          until peace is established there, that isn’t going to happen

          That’s entirely the wrong framing. Without these things happening, whatever it is that you think will be established, it won’t be “peace”, is is only a return to the oppressive status quo ante. It’s a cliché but in this conflict, quite literally “no justice, no peace”. My laundry list above is not a desirable outcome after some imaginary unjust “peace”. It is the precondition for peace. Without dismantling the apartheid, the occupation, etc, you’ll only have a temporary lull in the brutality and they go again.

    • NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      28
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      19 days ago

      Stop making an enemy of all their neighbors with their apartheid/genocide project, would be a good start.

      • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        24
        ·
        19 days ago

        With the number of rockets Hamas and Hezbollah has launched into Israel during “peacetime” while being supplied by Iran, they’re doing a great job of staying enemies.

        • DeLacue@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          21
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          19 days ago

          Did you know that the Gazan bomb disposal teams are some of the most skilled in the world? The reason for this is so they can disarm and disassemble unexploded Israeli bombs so that the explosives can be repurposed and fired back. So a surprisingly large portion of the explosives that Hamas used were supplied by Israel via their long-term sporadic bombing of Gaza and anything resembling major infrastructure.

            • AgentDalePoopster@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              22
              ·
              19 days ago

              Well maybe Israel should stop its brutal, decades-long apartheid campaign that’s pissing off all of its neighbors and pre-dates Hamas by around 50 years.

              • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                19
                ·
                19 days ago

                How many of these brutal wars were started by Israel completely unprovoked, and how many of them were started because Israel’s neighbors F-ed around before finding out?

                • AgentDalePoopster@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  18
                  ·
                  19 days ago

                  I’m not talking about wars. I’m talking about Israeli apartheid, all of which was and continues to be enacted exclusively by Israel.

                • Cethin@lemmy.zip
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  13
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  19 days ago

                  Arguably, all of them involving Israel were started by Israel. Colonists coming in and buying the farm, then refusing to hire the local non-jews who traditionally worked there, is going to provoke a response. They knew this, and it’s why they formed militias to attack them and use the response as justification to expand militarily. These militias were formed into the IDF when Israel officially became a nation.

                  Sure, you can also argue that buying up the land and not hiring the locals was “their right” but you can’t really complain when people lose their ability to survive because some foreigners come in and take away their jobs.

                  Israel has continued this policy of forcing a response from their neighbors and then using this as justification to use much more force to take more territory. Its not happening by accident. It’s a strategic move by Israel to provoke their neighbors, yet somehow people like you say the neighbors should have done nothing. Maybe Israel should do nothing. Who’s justified?

                  • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    2
                    arrow-down
                    8
                    ·
                    19 days ago

                    Depending on how far back you want to go, the Jews had lived in Israel for a long, long time before even their revolt against Hadrian in 135 AD. As for the first colonists returning to the territory in the 19th and 20th centuries, those Jews were facing persecution in their homelands.

                    Did Israel provoke the Suez Crisis? Did Israel provoke the Six-Day War? Or the Yom Kippur War? The 1982 Lebanon War? All of the times that militant groups have attacked Israeli civilians?

            • NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              13
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              19 days ago

              But Iran is still aiding and abetting Hamas’s military campaign against Israel.

              You say aiding and abetting like supporting anti-colonial resistance is a bad thing.

        • NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          18
          ·
          19 days ago

          Good job putting peacetime in quotes, because during that “peacetime” Israel was airstriking Gaza and blockading it. These are straight up acts of war and justify and demand retaliation. Also Hezbollah didn’t launch rockets on Israel before October 7th.

        • Maggoty@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          20
          ·
          19 days ago

          They said leave all 1967 occupied areas.

          You responded with the entire population of Israel.

        • catloaf@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          16
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          19 days ago

          They don’t have to go anywhere. They just don’t get a religious ethnostate any more. Let Palestine be a free democracy and they are welcome to live in a free society, no apartheid.

        • small44@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          14
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          19 days ago

          Read again I said the land colonized after 67 so the israelis aren’t moving anywhere

            • small44@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              17
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              19 days ago

              All the post 67 land are considered occupied why Palestinians should give up their land?

              • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                2
                arrow-down
                16
                ·
                19 days ago

                I thought the entirety of Israel was unlawfully and immorally seized from the Palestinians over the course of decades. At least, that’s what most pro-Palestine folks seem to think.

                • small44@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  11
                  ·
                  19 days ago

                  It is but most of us are not heartless people who would like to kick out 8 millions people

                  • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    arrow-down
                    17
                    ·
                    19 days ago

                    An actual, mutually peaceful solution would be better. Hamas has turned down or broken ceasefire after ceasefire. There is no reason to trust them at this point.

              • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                12
                ·
                19 days ago

                I thought the entirety of Israel was unlawfully and immorally seized from the Palestinians over the course of decades. At least, that’s what most pro-Palestine folks seem to think.

                • Keeponstalin@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  4
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  19 days ago

                  Ethnic Cleansing has always been a cornerstone of Zionism.

                  Origins of Zionism

                  Zionism is a settler colonialism project that was able to really start with the support of British Imperialism. Zionism as a political movement started with Theodore Herzl in the 1880s as a ‘modern’ way to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ of Europe.

                  Since at least the 1860’s, Europe was increasingly antisemitic and hostile to Jewish people. Zionism was explicitly a Setter Colonialist movement and the native Palestinians were not considered People but Savages by the Europeans. While Zionist Colonization began before it, the Balfor Declaration is when Britain gave it’s backing of the movement in order to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ while also creating a Colony in the newly conquered Middle East after WWI in order to exhibit military force in the region and extract natural resources.

                  That’s when Zionist immigration started to pick up, out of necessity for most as Europe became more hostile and antisemitic. That continued into and during WWII, European countries and even the US refused to expand immigration quotas for Jewish people seeking asylum. The idea that the creation of Israel is a reparation for Jewish people is an after-the-fact justification. While most Jewish immigrants had no choice and just wanted a place to live in peace, it was the Zionist Leadership that developed and implemented the forced transfer, ethnic cleansing, of the native population, Palestinians. Without any Occupation, Apartheid, and ethnic cleansing, there would not be any Palestinian resistance to it.

                  Herzl himself explicitly considered Zionism a Settler Colonialist project, Setter Colonialism is always violent. The difficulty in creating a democratic Jewish state in an area inhabited by people who are not Jewish, is that enough Palestinian people need to be ‘Transferred’ to have a demographic majority that is Jewish. Ben-Gurion explicitly rejected Secular Bi-national state solutions in favor of partition.

                  Quote

                  Zionism’s aims in Palestine, its deeply-held conviction that the Land of Israel belonged exclusively to the Jewish people as a whole, and the idea of Palestine’s “civilizational barrenness" or “emptiness” against the background of European imperialist ideologies all converged in the logical conclusion that the native population should make way for thenewcomers.

                  The idea that the Palestinian Arabs must find a place for themselves elsewhere was articulated early on. Indeed, the founder of the movement, Theodor Herzl, provided an early reference to transfer even before he formally outlined his theory of Zionist rebirth in his Judenstat.

                  An 1895 entry in his diary provides in embryonic form many of the elements that were to be demonstrated repeatedly in the Zionist quest for solutions to the “Arab problem ”-the idea of dealing with state governments over the heads of the indigenous population, Jewish acquisition of property that would be inalienable, “Hebrew Land" and “Hebrew Labor,” and the removal of the native population.

                  Settlements, Occupation, and Apartheid

                  Israel justifies the settlements and military bases in the West Bank in the name of Security. However, the reality of the settlements on-the-ground has been the cause of violent resistance and a significant obstacle to peace, as it has been for decades.

                  This type of settlement, where the native population gets ‘Transferred’ to make room for the settlers, is a long standing practice.

                  The mass ethnic cleansing campaign of 1948:

                  Further, declassified Israeli documents show that the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were deliberately planned before being executed in 1967:

                  While the peace process was exploited to continue de-facto annexation of the West Bank via Settlements

                  The settlements are maintained through a violent apartheid that routinely employs violence towards Palestinians and denies human rights like water access, civil rights, etc. This kind of control gives rise to violent resistance to the Apartheid occupation, jeopardizing the safety of Israeli civilians.

                  The apartheid regime is based on organized, systemic violence against Palestinians, which is carried out by numerous agents: the government, the military, the Civil Administration, the Supreme Court, the Israel Police, the Israel Security Agency, the Israel Prison Service, the Israel Nature and Parks Authority, and others. Settlers are another item on this list, and the state incorporates their violence into its own official acts of violence. Settler violence sometimes precedes instances of official violence by Israeli authorities, and at other times is incorporated into them. Like state violence, settler violence is organized, institutionalized, well-equipped and implemented in order to achieve a defined strategic goal.

                  Apartheid Evidence

                  Amnesty Report

                  Human Rights Watch Report

                  B’TSelem Report with quick Explainer

                  Visualizing the Ethnic Cleansing

                  Peace Process and Solution

                  Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution

                  How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution

                  ‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe

                  One State Solution, Foreign Affairs

                  Historian Works on the History
        • orrk@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          6
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          19 days ago

          to be fair, it’s much easier if you just annex and slaughter the fucking browns who are there

          • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            4
            arrow-down
            19
            ·
            19 days ago

            Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist organizations, and Iran is a state sponsor of terrorism. Do you want to go to bat for them?

            • orrk@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              11
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              19 days ago

              Otzma Jehudit is part of the Israeli Government coalition, it consists mainly of internationally wanted terrorists. and you want to bat for these terrorists? the ones who have been preaching the 14 words as a justification for genocide?

              • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                14
                ·
                19 days ago

                Assuming that’s true, that’s one group within the government. Find them, try them, and imprison them. On the other side are three entire genocidal terrorist regimes. Will you side with them? What do you think we should do with them?

                • orrk@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  12
                  ·
                  19 days ago

                  we don’t need to fucking find them, they are open, they give speeches about how starving and killing every Palestinian is a moral good on a daily basis. they ARE the government, who’s going to put them in front of a judge and find them guilty, themselves? you are literally supporting a genocidal terrorist regime.

            • bamboo@lemm.ee
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              12
              arrow-down
              2
              ·
              19 days ago

              Calling the people you dislike “terrorists” to avoid critical thinking about the atrocities (including genocide) of your own side isn’t really the gotcha you think it is.

              • SaltySalamander@fedia.io
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                8
                ·
                19 days ago

                Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, and Israel are currently acting as terrorist states/groups. That isn’t up for debate, because it’s objective reality.

                • bamboo@lemm.ee
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  6
                  ·
                  19 days ago

                  I’m not sure that there is credible evidence of Iran and its affiliates targeting civilians the same way that the occupation has, their acts all seem to be targeting military installations rather than civilian targets. The occupation primarily targets civilians and civilian infrastructure.

                  • SaltySalamander@fedia.io
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    arrow-down
                    2
                    ·
                    18 days ago

                    I’m not sure that there is credible evidence of Iran and its affiliates targeting civilians the same way that the occupation has

                    I guess Oct 7 was just a figment of our collective imaginations.

              • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                4
                arrow-down
                14
                ·
                19 days ago

                I’m not calling them that on my own. I’m describing them the way multiple other nations have described them - not Israel. You only need to see their actions towards their own population to see why.