Mitch McConell says the quiet part out loud.

Exact full quote from CNN:

ā€œPeople think, increasingly it appears, that we shouldnā€™t be doing this. Well, let me start by saying we havenā€™t lost a single American in this war,ā€ McConnell said. ā€œMost of the money that we spend related to Ukraine is actually spent in the US, replenishing weapons, more modern weapons. So itā€™s actually employing people here and improving our own military for what may lie ahead.ā€

cross-posted from: https://lemm.ee/post/4085063

  • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
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    1 year ago

    Itā€™s not a win win for the Ukrainians, who are losing lives. The article shows whatā€™s been said all along: the US doesnā€™t gaf about Ukraine or itā€™s people. The US is only involved to make money and to prop up the USā€™s dying empire.

    • diffuselight@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Without the US more ukrainians would die and Russia would have overrun them by now and subjugated them into the shitshow they call motherland.

      So itā€™s a win win.

      Ask Ukrainians which version they prefer - US involvement or not. Oh wait, itā€™s pretty clear they prefer the kill rabid bear with Himars version.

      The only version theyā€™d like even more is killing bear with ATACMS and F16.

      So fuck off tankie.

      • Krause [he/him]@lemmygrad.ml
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        1 year ago

        Ask Ukrainians which version they prefer - US involvement or not.

        Yeah thereā€™s just one little problem here fam: the US backed a coup there and installed pro-war neo-nazis in power, there was no question about it left to the Ukrainians.

        • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
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          1 year ago

          In the liberal imagination, history started this morning, every morning, unfortunately. Historical context is practically irrelevant to them once theyā€™ve been told which side to pick.

          Iā€™m fairly sure that if you asked Ukrainians, thereā€™d be a clear victory for ā€˜please can everyone stop aiming RPGs at my grandmaā€™s house and my sonā€™s school?ā€™ although Iā€™d expect regional split in the answers. The only people who root for war like this are (if thereā€™s a difference between them) psychopaths, liberals who are far from the frontlines, and fascists.

        • GoodEye8@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          there was no question about it left to the Ukrainians.

          Except for the nearly a million Euromaidan protesters and half the country in support of protest, with the support rising after the supposed ā€œcoupā€? The very protest that set the ā€œcoupā€ in motion because Russia used the corrupt pro-russia prime minister to strike down the pro-eu deal. Seems to me like Ukrainians wanted this ā€œcoupā€.

        • Zoboomafoo@yiffit.net
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          1 year ago

          Well in that case you should support US sending weapons even more, just fascists fighting fascists, right?

          • Krause [he/him]@lemmygrad.ml
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            1 year ago

            At this point I support the US sending the F-16s tomorrow, yesterday, whenever they want really, itā€™s not like anything short of nukes or direct NATO involvement has any chance of flipping the current situation around.

            Letā€™s see those toy planes shot down by Russiaā€™s anti-air and extremely dug-in defenses, Iā€™m sure itā€™ll do very well for morale in the Ukrainian army and support back at home in the US!

    • Grosboel@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Ok, and? Are they doing something wrong? Arenā€™t we supposed to scold someone when theyā€™re doing bads things, and praise them for doing good things, not just shit on them no matter what?

      US involvement is unambiguously a good thing morally and for the people of Ukraine. Any other take would lunacy. So why are you taking time to shit on the US and not the ethnonationalist dictatorship invading a democratic neighbor of theirs? Are your priorities that messed up? America bad? Certainly, but it hurts YOU to have a such narrow minded view geopolitics. The US isnā€™t always the bad guy.

      • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
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        1 year ago

        The US has spent 30+ years shit stirring, dismantling Ukraine, running coups, and undermining Ukraineā€™s relationships with itā€™s closest neighbours. Now itā€™s provoked a war and all gullible liberals can say is the same thing they said about the US contemporaneously with all its other wars.

        The article in the OP demonstrates exactly what I and others like me have been saying from the start: the US is not involved to be the good guy, it has no moral high ground; it is only involved to make money, and no number of Ukrainian lives is too great a price to pay for US prosperity. The US is involved to steal as much Ukrainian wealth as possible.

        Itā€™s not just the ā€˜profitā€™ from selling the weapons (which Ukraine will pay for, not the US, so thereā€™s no benevolence in it but self-interest). Every aid package is another tranche of the same kind of loans that the US has used to loot and privatise the countryā€™s assets for decades. The same thing the US does everywhere. The only difference now is the novelty of trying to physically destroy Russiaā€™s military at the same time.

        Itā€™s a bit rich to say that Iā€™m the one with a narrow minded view of geopolitics when youā€™ve reduced a 30+ year conflict to itā€™s surface details. Events like this cannot be separated from the political economy or their historical context. Itā€™s clear that liberals still havenā€™t learned to correct a flaw in their framework that was identified 150 years ago (source otherwise only indirectly relevant):

        That in their appearance things often represent themselves in inverted form is pretty well known in every science except Political Economy.

        Some people have dug beneath the appearance of things, whereas others accept them in their inverted form.

      • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
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        1 year ago

        Do you honestly believe that? You honestly think that US aid has saved lives in Ukraine? Some surely has but the weapons? Ig itā€™s not your family and friends in the cross hairs, your fields poisoned with depleted uranium, or your kidsā€™ cross country tracks littered with cluster munitions. You really think the country responsible for embargoes of medical supplies to Palestine, Yemen, and Cuba, to name a few, is sending aid to save lives?

        Ukraine is another Kurdistan to the US. The only question is whether it will take the Ukrainians as long as it took the Kurds to learn that the US is nobodyā€™s friend.

        • Zoboomafoo@yiffit.net
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          1 year ago

          Russia has been using cluster munitions the entire war, and their bomblets have a 40% failure rate. US-made ones have a >3% failure rate. Point your criticism where it belongs

    • legion02@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Eh, weā€™re not in there for a couple reasons and they all make sense. It would preclude NATO from ever entering because of the non-aggression portion of the agreement, and it would put Russia in a corner where they have to either admit defeat (which putin wonā€™t do) or go nuclear which is bad for everyone but especially bad for Ukraine.

      • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
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        1 year ago

        The article in the OP is explicitly talking about US involvement. The US and NATO are ā€˜in thereā€™. If NATO isnā€™t in Ukraine, it was hardly ever anywhere.

        Arguing that NATO isnā€™t involved seems to be either disingenuous or naive. It accepts NATOā€™s PR at face value and in opposition to the practical reality. NATO/the US tends not announce itā€™s clandestine work in the tabloids or the broadsheets, especially as it happens but it does admit it sometimes, if you know what youā€™re looking for. In the case of Ukraine, itā€™s not even hidden. Theyā€™ve been bragging about how much weaponry theyā€™ve been sending and how much theyā€™ve been involved in training and instructing Ukrainians how to fight.

        Was the US involved when it trained and funded Saddam, Bin Laden, or the Contras? Of course it was. Ukraine is another example of how the US gets involved without ā€˜getting itā€™s hands dirtyā€™; although Iā€™ve yet to meet anyone IRL who doesnā€™t think the US has the bloodiest, grimiest hands of all. The only question is whether people think itā€™s a good thing or a bad thing. The fact of it is not open to dispute.

        Iā€™ll struggle to accept any argument that splits hairs over what counts as involvement, Iā€™m afraid. It boils down to semantics without addressing the crux of the issue.

        Iā€™m also struggling to see why more visible NATO/US involvement would require Russia to admit defeat until itā€™s been defeated. Unless youā€™re implying that NATO would wipe the floor with Russia. That doesnā€™t seem right for two reasons:

        1. The best minds and the resources of NATO have been demonstrably unable to stop Russia so far and
        2. If Russia looks like losing, it has the nuclear option and shit gets real messy real quick and itā€™s lose-lose for everyone
        • legion02@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          3rd party involvement and direct engagement are two very different things. The non-aggression agreement, the one that protects and constrains nato members, only cares about engagement, training and arms are a-ok. What member states agreed to is concrete and well defined, not whatever amorphous definition youā€™re going by here.

          • kbotc@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            The ā€œloose definitionā€ redtea came up with is bonkers.

            Additionally, as you say, words have meanings. When people criticise NATO it is as a stand-in for the imperialist world order. It includes the IMF, World Bank, the WTO, the ā€˜internationalā€™ courts and rules, and all their elements and capitalist lackeys. Youā€™re making a semantic argument, which misses the crucial point: that NATO and its member states are concerned only with the wealth and power of their bourgeoisie, regardless of Russia.

            Iā€™m not trying to hide the fact that I have an agenda, that we canā€™t have world peace until there are no more imperialists, which includes and is often, in ordinary language, represented by NATO. If you interpret that as support for Russia, thereā€™s not much left for us to discuss.

            The nutbagā€™s definition of NATO includes Russia.

    • Gsus4@feddit.nl
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      1 year ago

      Yes, the US is making money helping Ukraine uphold international law and russia is losing money committing war crimes to the last Ukrainian.

        • Gsus4@feddit.nl
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          1 year ago

          Yes, you spend blood and treasure to conquer land and then brag about it in history books.

          You impose your rule on that land and your peasants rejoice at your statesmanship and feel blessed to join such a great nation, or elseā€¦

          • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
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            1 year ago

            My point is that nobody doing that would be doing it for free. This applies the apologia for all other empires to Russia. I.e. that empire builders do it sometimes by accident but always for benevolent reasons. Thatā€™s incorrect. Empires are built by extracting wealth and to extract wealth.

            I think you agree with this as Iā€™m reading your second paragraph as sarcasm. If you do agree, then itā€™s not possible to conclude that Russia will lose money. It may do, if it loses, although even that is questionable. If it wins, it will gain wealth. Or itā€™s capitalists will do so. Thereā€™s a contradiction between your two paragraphs.

            If Russiaā€™s motivations are imperialistic (I havenā€™t seen evidence for that, myself, but it depends on oneā€™s definition of imperialism), there would be no point if it cost more money to achieve than would be recouped after. Until itā€™s over, itā€™s not possible to say that itā€™s already lost money. Itā€™s costly, but thatā€™s different, and doesnā€™t answer, ā€˜Costly for whom?ā€™

            (Please donā€™t misunderstand me ā€“ Iā€™m not saying that Russia will not exploit whatever parts of Ukraine it keeps hold of. Itā€™s capitalist. Of course it will. Iā€™m suggesting that this war doesnā€™t amount to a land grab simpliciter.)

            One counter to this is that the US is spending money to ensure that Russia does lose money. Time will tell whether Iā€™m right or wrong but I think this drastically overestimates the strength of the US. It doesnā€™t have an industrial base (except in vassal and puppet states). So it cannot match Russiaā€™s military output.

            And the industries the US does possess are governed by the logic of finance capital not industrial capital. Money spent does not indicate how much has been bought. $10bn spent on weapons, for instance, doesnā€™t mean you get $10bn worth of weapons by the time you factor in all the sales teams, admin, embezzlement, and middle managers, etc.

            The US seems incapable of providing Ukraine with the arms that the Ukrainian military is asking for. Itā€™s publications have started to admit this more and more. Due to the above-mentioned logics, the US doesnā€™t have the intellectual-ideological or industrial capacity to ramp up manufacturing. The US certainly has people bright enough to figure it out but theyā€™re inconsequential in the face of a military-industrial complex designed to make as much money as possible rather than to ā€˜winā€™ wars.

            • kbotc@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Oh look, the ā€œNATO is anything I donā€™t likeā€ Russian apologist tankie guy is back at pulling out fake shit out of their ass.

              The US is the second largest manufacturer on the planet, and insources its military production.

              Ukraine is complaining that we canā€™t send them Soviet era military structure compatible weaponry. The US had largely phased out ā€œdig a trench and use artillery to make a breakthroughā€ back in the late 80s, because we could attain air superiority against Soviet tech.

              • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
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                1 year ago

                I see youā€™re coming at me with another semantic argument. This one based on the notion that by ā€˜doesnā€™t have an industrial baseā€™ I can only mean ā€˜doesnā€™t have any industrial baseā€™. Thatā€™s a rather strange reading as it assumes I have zero grasp of logic. The existence of the tiniest fragment of industry would render my argument incorrect. Itā€™s acting in bad faith to assume I meant that.

                Which leaves the search for an alternative interpretation. Such as the US doesnā€™t have a sufficient industrial base to achieve its goals militarily in the Ukraine. The figures are hard to come by as there are lots of definitional issues. Still, trade publications and Congress are worried.

                ā€œU.S. policies and financial investments are not currently oriented to support a defense ecosystem built for peer conflict,ā€ the report read. ā€œThis was a troubling truth during the last 20 years of asymmetric conflict against non-state actors. In the return of great power competition, this gap is an unsustainable indictment.ā€

                US manufacturing can be as large as it likes but if it canā€™t join up itā€™s thinking and produce what fighters on the front line need, it doesnā€™t count for much. Itā€™s DIB is not set up for wars against industrialised countries that are determined to fight back. It doesnā€™t matter what weapons and compatible ammunition the US does produce, either, if it isnā€™t working to supply them to the people doing the fighting and isnā€™t willing to use them itself for (rightly) being at least a little bit reluctant to start a nuclear third world war.

                Iā€™m a little skeptical of the extent of the claims about the weaknesses of the DIB and more so of the framing of the solution. The details are coming from people who want to increase the military budget (without otherwise wanting to change the underlying political economic system). Still, there does seem to be some movement to use the Ukraine war to justify costly improvements to the US DIB.

                Will the changes come? And will they come in time to defeat Russia in Ukraine within a reasonable time frame? The plan will struggle against the existing contradictions unless thereā€™s a change in logic, which doesnā€™t seem to be on the cards. So itā€™s unlikely to be a complete success even if some fixes are implemented.

                Itā€™s irrelevant whether you accept what Iā€™m saying. Iā€™m only summarising what the US military is saying. This is public information. If youā€™re interested, search for ā€˜us defense industrial baseā€™. What Iā€™ve explained is such a hot topic, you donā€™t even need to add e.g. ā€˜problemsā€™ to the search terms for articles about the problems to be returned.

                • kbotc@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  Additionally, as you say, words have meanings. When people criticise NATO it is as a stand-in for the imperialist world order. It includes the IMF, World Bank, the WTO, the ā€˜internationalā€™ courts and rules, and all their elements and capitalist lackeys. Youā€™re making a semantic argument, which misses the crucial point: that NATO and its member states are concerned only with the wealth and power of their bourgeoisie, regardless of Russia.

                  Iā€™m not trying to hide the fact that I have an agenda, that we canā€™t have world peace until there are no more imperialists, which includes and is often, in ordinary language, represented by NATO. If you interpret that as support for Russia, thereā€™s not much left for us to discuss.

                  Your position literally is the NATO is all the imperial capitalists in the world, and somehow Russia is not involved in either of those definitions and deserves to be apologized for. Itā€™s internally inconsistent and is shill behavior.

                  You have an agenda, and itā€™s pro imperialist, as long as the imperialist is not the US. Congrats; If you were in the US, youā€™re dumb enough that youā€™d be shilling for Trump because ā€œHeā€™s gonna drain the swamp!ā€

                • kbotc@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  Iā€™m only summarising what the US military is saying.

                  Youā€™re only summarizing what the US Military Industrial Complex is saying, which isnā€™t the US Military. National Defense Industrial Association != US Military, again going back to the ā€œNATO is whatever I define it asā€ that you keep insisting.

                  Mark Milley is the mouthpiece of the US Military as the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and heā€™s not mincing words: Russia will lose militarily in Ukraine. It will take time and blood, but the US is responsible for 34% of the worldā€™s military industrial output and claiming

                  Itā€™s DIB is not set up for wars against industrialised countries that are determined to fight back.

                  Is not reality. Weā€™ve only faced off once, and the Battle of Khasham did not go well for the ā€œindustrialized country determined to fight backā€