Edit: Just asked because of curiosity. I’m not actually looking for such vehicles.
Edit 2: So for context, my parents new Toyota has this feature that allows the GPS location of the car to be sent to toyota, then you can see the location via an app on android/ios (it’s supposed to be an anti-theft feature). The data is sent via an antenna that connects to cell towers, which then connects to the internet, and to the toyota servers. “Diagnostic” and “maintenance” information is also sent via those same antennas.
The dealer said it could be turned off, but who knows if they are really off. There’s not a hard switch on the car.
I only drive burner cars.
This is a thing near the border us/Mexico border.
Not a political theme. Border is sensitive.
But drug lords in Mexico pay folks in the US to pick up/drop off people who are illegally crossing on foot all day long.
They buy cars for strangers to use once, and abandon. As a burner shuttle.
So, don’t drive a car with temporary license plates near the border if you don’t want attention.
I’m Australian, what’s a border? ;)
Which type? Are you a Ford Pinto or Ferrari F355 type?
Camrys
and to the toyota servers. “Diagnostic” and “maintenance” information is also sent via those same antennas.
That is a lie they tell to justify their intrusion. Your geolocation data alone is incredibly valuable. And no, it cannot be sufficiently anonymized to actually be “anonymous”.
It can easily be “pseudo-anonymized”, where each car is given a large random number, and geolocation data is indexed solely by that number, with no other identifying info. Except we all know that they probably have a deal with Facebook or some other shit website, so Meta can link your pseudonomynous driving data with whoever’s Facebook profile is in the car most of the time.
It’s still an ID. Even just the geolocation/trips.
They see where you start, they see where you end. Most likely, the most common places are going to be your home adress and work adress. Unless you park in a paid lot/ramp (in the city, for example,), that’ll both give a solid idea of your identity.
And that’s just using the end points. Google trims the ends of the rides (2 min, iirc,) but even then, that gets you to a neighborhood, and with more data, and knowing average time to pass to the various points (data they have in spades,) well, they can use that to start triangulating houses.
The point being, it doesn’t matter how anonymized the data is. The reason it’s valuable is that you are unique - and the data you generate is unique. Given enough of it, it’ll always point back to you.
The cars are capturing more and more telemetry per mile. The more driver assist tech they have the more data the collect. Many also have cameras to monitor the driver for things like falling asleep. All this data is at least in the car’s blackbox, but how much they phone home is something I don’t think we fully know. There were people in Reddit that claimed that dealerships could disable the car’s modems but I haven’t put much stock in them.
I wouldn’t even mind that they are gathering all this data – as long as they let me know what it is, and let me access it, too. The cameras on these things are much better than any shitty dashcam I would buy. If I got in an accident, I would like access to that footage right away.
I drove a rental Tesla once. Those cars are super-shitty, but they let you see video of things like people who approach the car while it’s parked. And more importantly, they let you delete the video.
You could physically disconnect the modem to prevent the car from sending data. I would go to an independent mechanic for that, not the dealer.
Consumers have almost zero control and options in regard to privacy, other than simply buying an older model.
This line really hit me hard.
There might not be a hard switch, but there’s probably a fuse. And if there’s not a fuse, there’s a power line.
Just disconnect all the radios/antennas, including trace antennas as PCBs. The car can collect all it wants as long as that stays on the car.
Also make sure to get hidden transmitters, like TPMS sensors (they have been used to track people before).
You can’t really do anything about ALPR without committing crimes in most countries.
How do these cars even connect to the internet? Can’t you just not let them? Obviously you can’t use the built in navigation or spotify either then but it’s not like you can’t just use your smartphone for that like I already do with my -07 truck
They have integrated modems and WiFi antennas that connect to either the cellular service or the dealership’s WiFi (or your own if you set it up). No way to stop them, I have no idea if the car even turns on if the antenna is broken/non functioning.
No way to stop them, I have no idea if the car even turns on if the antenna is broken/non functioning.
It would have to, or else the car would just break during an internet outage, or if it is out of range of mobile service (like if it is in a carpark), and that would be a disaster. Imagine not being able to use a carpark because your car will refuse to start if it doesn’t have an internet signal.
It has to connect to the internet somehow. Otherwise how could I see where the car is are using the Toyota app? I could see the tire pressure in each tire and the amount of fuel.
There is also this button at the top (the ceiling?) of the car that basically acts like an emergency button. Pressing it connects your car to someone at toyota that calls for roadside assistance. But idk why then even have that since most people have phones anyways.
Modern cars have no privacy, and there is not really an easy way to disable telemetry (among other things) once it’s activated.
Source: worked as a software developer for a major automaker
How bad is the telemetry?
Telemetry isn’t necessarily bad by itself.
Location information, how you drive, system diagnostics, to try and sell you dealership repair services.
The list goes on, but at one point my team had the ability to unlock any production vehicle.
I’m guessing you mean data privacy?
Probably the only way is to not allow any part to connect to the Internet. Don’t sync their apps to your phone, etc.
Some cars have an antenna built in to the car. I mean the antennas that connect to cell towers, not a fm radio antenna.
I think most do in case you want to connect to their service. It would be interesting to know if they connect anyway, regardless if you are using their services.
If you do a deep dive into the manual, you will see that there is an always-on connection for “diagnostic information”. (I think there is a “DCM” indicator on the display to show when it’s active). I wish I knew what they were sending. I can’t find a way to connect the car to local wifi to send the data, which is probably by design because if I am sending it through an AP I control, I could sniff out some details on where they are sending the data.
Yeah. Pretty easy to remove the antennas. Stock though? Probably not
Do you mean as in tinted windows or the fact that cars now have Android Auto?
If it’s the latter, you would probably be best grabbing an old car and upgrading it piece by piece to current standards. (I would personally love to modernize an “old” Yaris hatchback).
I mean the computerization of the car, especially when it comes to the in car entertainment system that is connected to car’s built in antenna.
https://www.toyota.com/connected-services/
You could now see your car’s tire pressue, fuel levels, and some even allows starting your car from a phone app. Who knows what “diagnostic data” is being sent back to the car dealer?
I see.
Well unfortunately, i think we like it or not, it’s the way things are gonna go. (Mostly because most people are gonna passively accept this change.)
So like i said earlier, i think the solution for you (and anyone concerned about privacy for that matter) would be to keep your current car’s efficiency (turning from combustion to electric) and safety features up to date, so that the automatization of cars does not affect you directly.
Otherwise, you’d probably be tempted to leave cars altogether.
Massive underground garage in a bunker.
Not yet, but as modern cars break down and people figure out how to strip it to a working chassis and drivetrain without dependence on other components, you’ll see some neat things.
Depedant on a few factors like laws regarding window tint, license plate display, and what you consider privacy.
In general, places which are visible from a public street or walkway, even if it is private property, is not considered a location where a reasonable person would expect privacy. So if the law prohibits a very dark tint and people can see into your vehicle from the outside, then no, you should not expect privacy inside your vehicle.
If your local law requires your license plates be visible while the vehicle is on a public roadway, then your license plate number is considered not private while it is displayed publicly.
In some places, if your vehicle doors are not locked, it is not considered a crime for a person to open the doors without authorization, specifically if the person does not take anything from the vehicle.
If you are concerned with things like hacking your car radio for personal information, while certainly hacking anything is possible, I have been a mechanic for a long time and have never heard of a person successfully hacking a car radio and gaining access to personal data without having to have physical access to the radio unit itself. So unless a person is inside your car with the key in the ignition, your navigation data is probably pretty private.
In a hypothetical sense, for the reasons listed above, it’s most likely that “privacy” for vehicles will not be attainable due to the nature of existing law.
Are there any potential privacy related concerns I missed?
I think OP is talking about the “connected car” tech features in modern cars that have a nasty habit of phoning home
? why wouldn’t it be? did you have specific concerns?
Teslas for example are privacy nightmares.
they send cameras back, including cabin interior cameras
even when the car is parked in the garage. oh and employees were sharing this
they also record everywhere you go in realtimeOh and they’re absolutely going to nark on you and hand over that trove of data if you’re being investigated for something (like, I dunno? Maybe you left Texas for an abortion?)(or maybe you went to a lgbtq night club?)
General Motors isn’t much better. (This is from 2011) " OnStar, the service started by General Motors to support drivers through a cell phone system in their cars, has now told customers it may collect information on their movements and driving habits – even if they no longer subscribe to the service." And “Unless the Data Connection in your Vehicle is deactivated, information about your Vehicle may continue to be collected even if you do not have a Plan.” https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/onstar-gm-privacy-terms-company-record-car-information/story?id=14581571
https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/onstar-your-location-and-your-privacy/
I didn’t imagine they were.
I’d feel it’s safe to assume any vehicle with the ability to send or receive data is going to be violating your privacy.
Not OP, but cars are going down the same path as countless other “smart” devices. Things like fridges and TVs now include a considerable amount of tracking and datamining. It’s not unreasonable to expect that cars are doing the same thing, especially given that many include onboard cellular modems for the infotainment system.
My parents new toytota has this feature that allows car’s gps location to be sent for “anti-theft” but that mean the car has an antenna that broadcast the location. Which means it could also activate the microphone inside the car (there is a voice command feature which means it has a microphone) and just listen in on conversations and send the voice recordings using that same antenna that lets the car to be tracked.
Not saying they do that, but the potential of that happening is not really fun to think about.
