The programmers especially on my team agree with you 200%
My team works from four locations in three states, two time zones. We work on the computer, we meet on Teams, we chat on Teams. Occasionally we phone reach other
The other IT people are happy to be in the office occasionally to catch up with others in the office, the programmers overall don’t
So they commute typically about an hour each way on days they must be in the office to work exactly as they do at home and have about as much social contact
To add a totally contrary point here, imptomptu in person conversations I’ve had with other teams I wouldn’t interact with a lot has given me a tonne more perspective as a software developer. Especially with people working in sales and support but also from other engineering teams. I think it comes down to office culture. Yeah if everyone just comes in, never interacts with anyone and sits there coding all day then goes home, then yeah that’s going to be a worse experience but if you actually embrace office culture I think it’s super rewarding and beneficial to career development.
In my experience most people are really bad at jumping out of their team and silo remotely, especially software developers. Some people might make it work, but that’s not my experience with the majority of coders. Also as good as zoom/teams/slack is, it really doesn’t compare to an in person conversation. It’s a more formal and often friction filled experience. Conversations remotely are mostly done with purpose, you call someone for a reason. This makes relationships really transactional. The in person aspect drives a lot more potential for organic conversation. Remotely I might see two of my colleagues in a huddle on slack, if I happen to be looking at their profiles at the right time, but I would never join them. Conversely however I’ve commented and jumped in on conversations between the ML engineers sitting behind me all the time, and vice versa when I’m discussing python programming.
Most of my hobbies are online actually, in fact as an expat they’re the only way I stay connected to friends around the world. The majority of my really deep friendships are these days virtual.
I don’t mean the conversations are formal, but the format is. As an example, a group conversation in person can have smaller side conversations going on. On video chat one at a time. Yeah you can still have good conversations, but the only one speaking limitation introduces a level of formality to the conversation. I can’t lean to a friend and whisper an in joke, or comment something.
No forcing at all, if you don’t want to go in, don’t, I just don’t think it actually does your career or relationships any favours.
But is not nearly as easy. Conversations move faster than can type out complex thoughts most of the time. They might not even see it till minutes after. The experience is simply not the same. It leads to a very different social experience, that imo, leads to less strong relationships, especially for people joining a new company and for people on the lower end of the career ladder. I’d hate to have to seek mentorship virtually if I was a grad or junior atm.
And this is totally ignoring the fact that for a lot of people they connect over things in person. Walking by the bar on the way to the station and spotting colleagues, stopping in for a pint that turns into dinner. The walk to get lunch at the market. Sharing a homemade tiramisu. My deskmate asking about my coding problem as I swear under my breath. All things that happened this week and I only go in for 2 days, voluntarily, the rest of my team is entirely in other countries.
At the end of the day, do what you want, but the studies do show a drop in productivity for WFH. I think that stems at least partly from the social interaction elements. My counterpart is 10 years my senior in terms of ability and about as virtually social as a software developer gets, but because I’m well known in the office I get a load more of the random software questions. Which is good for me in the longer term. That’s my $0.02
The walk to get lunch at the market. Sharing a homemade tiramisu.
What the fuck kind of life is that?
Look, go to the office, have fun with the tiramisu, just don’t ever argue your perceived benefits of in-person communication in support of a manager’s wish to force it. I’d much prefer if you would directly argue in favor of it being kept an open option.
I am completely out of the job market right now and I really fucking hate participating in corporate culture. Fuck all of it, completely. It can all burn in a world-ending self-inflicted catastrophe. A bunch of idiots laughing over a coffee about how they’re gonna earn their share from completely unnecessary and actively destructive activities. Managing the company profiles of fucking sports commentators. Designing and turning giant sheets of steel into “decorative” fucking planters.
It’s just so much fluff. Meaningless, unimportant fluff. And this is what we’re requiring people spend 8 hours a day for the rest of their life on.
The programmers especially on my team agree with you 200%
My team works from four locations in three states, two time zones. We work on the computer, we meet on Teams, we chat on Teams. Occasionally we phone reach other
The other IT people are happy to be in the office occasionally to catch up with others in the office, the programmers overall don’t
So they commute typically about an hour each way on days they must be in the office to work exactly as they do at home and have about as much social contact
Some of them are quite unhappy with the situation
To add a totally contrary point here, imptomptu in person conversations I’ve had with other teams I wouldn’t interact with a lot has given me a tonne more perspective as a software developer. Especially with people working in sales and support but also from other engineering teams. I think it comes down to office culture. Yeah if everyone just comes in, never interacts with anyone and sits there coding all day then goes home, then yeah that’s going to be a worse experience but if you actually embrace office culture I think it’s super rewarding and beneficial to career development.
Impromptu in person conversations.
Impromptu
in personconversations.I like the latter.
In my experience most people are really bad at jumping out of their team and silo remotely, especially software developers. Some people might make it work, but that’s not my experience with the majority of coders. Also as good as zoom/teams/slack is, it really doesn’t compare to an in person conversation. It’s a more formal and often friction filled experience. Conversations remotely are mostly done with purpose, you call someone for a reason. This makes relationships really transactional. The in person aspect drives a lot more potential for organic conversation. Remotely I might see two of my colleagues in a huddle on slack, if I happen to be looking at their profiles at the right time, but I would never join them. Conversely however I’ve commented and jumped in on conversations between the ML engineers sitting behind me all the time, and vice versa when I’m discussing python programming.
You don’t seem like you have even a toe in casual online culture, are you treating this lemmy conversation as a transactional relationship, too?
Those problems are optional, treating it formally is optional.
Just don’t force people into the office just because you can’t manage to chill out online.
Most of my hobbies are online actually, in fact as an expat they’re the only way I stay connected to friends around the world. The majority of my really deep friendships are these days virtual.
I don’t mean the conversations are formal, but the format is. As an example, a group conversation in person can have smaller side conversations going on. On video chat one at a time. Yeah you can still have good conversations, but the only one speaking limitation introduces a level of formality to the conversation. I can’t lean to a friend and whisper an in joke, or comment something.
No forcing at all, if you don’t want to go in, don’t, I just don’t think it actually does your career or relationships any favours.
That’s comparable to sitting in a group chat/call and sending a dm. You can absolutely do that.
But is not nearly as easy. Conversations move faster than can type out complex thoughts most of the time. They might not even see it till minutes after. The experience is simply not the same. It leads to a very different social experience, that imo, leads to less strong relationships, especially for people joining a new company and for people on the lower end of the career ladder. I’d hate to have to seek mentorship virtually if I was a grad or junior atm.
And this is totally ignoring the fact that for a lot of people they connect over things in person. Walking by the bar on the way to the station and spotting colleagues, stopping in for a pint that turns into dinner. The walk to get lunch at the market. Sharing a homemade tiramisu. My deskmate asking about my coding problem as I swear under my breath. All things that happened this week and I only go in for 2 days, voluntarily, the rest of my team is entirely in other countries.
At the end of the day, do what you want, but the studies do show a drop in productivity for WFH. I think that stems at least partly from the social interaction elements. My counterpart is 10 years my senior in terms of ability and about as virtually social as a software developer gets, but because I’m well known in the office I get a load more of the random software questions. Which is good for me in the longer term. That’s my $0.02
What the fuck kind of life is that?
Look, go to the office, have fun with the tiramisu, just don’t ever argue your perceived benefits of in-person communication in support of a manager’s wish to force it. I’d much prefer if you would directly argue in favor of it being kept an open option.
I am completely out of the job market right now and I really fucking hate participating in corporate culture. Fuck all of it, completely. It can all burn in a world-ending self-inflicted catastrophe. A bunch of idiots laughing over a coffee about how they’re gonna earn their share from completely unnecessary and actively destructive activities. Managing the company profiles of fucking sports commentators. Designing and turning giant sheets of steel into “decorative” fucking planters.
It’s just so much fluff. Meaningless, unimportant fluff. And this is what we’re requiring people spend 8 hours a day for the rest of their life on.
I fucking hate our civilization.