Apple on Thursday asked the U.S. Supreme Court to strike down an order requiring changes to its App Store rules stemming from an antitrust case brought by "Fortnite" owner Epic Games.
I don’t think that’s what they’re worried about. Apple has more money than any other company on the planet. They care about their brand perception and it’s obvious that this would hurt it in the same way that crappy, cheap parts would. Opening the iPhone up to other App Stores and payment systems would be a huge negative for that. In fact, one of the main reasons I like the iPhone and Apple’s ecosystem is that I don’t have to worry about vetting whether a purchase I’m making is secure or whether an app I’m downloading is potentially nefarious. I don’t want that. I just want it to work when I need it and to be able to find and pay for apps quickly and silently. Epic might be more trustworthy than some (I, personally, don’t trust them after their past behavior) but this isn’t just limited to Epic. It would mean that every app I download, potentially, would have their own launcher like on Steam and that situation fucking sucks despite how awesome Steam is.
Nothing about allowing third party app stores would require you to change your usage patterns. Apple could keep all their current rules for the App Store exactly the same, and then also allow sideloading. If you want the pure apple experience as you described, all you have to do is only use their App Store. Then those who want to sideload (and companies looking to avoid paying apple fees) can do so through their own channels. Opt-in makes it a win-win for everyone, well except Apple who is currently enjoying a monopoly and charging the fees to match.
They already allow side-loading (albeit, admittedly, via a cumbersome mechanism). That is not what Epic is asking for. You’re either ignorant of what changes Epic is demanding here or you’re being disingenuous in your argument.
Apple allows sideloading with a 7 day, 3 app limit via a cumbersome process. It’s intentionally limited to make it non-viable for most people. Epic wants to be able to publish their games without using Apple’s infrastructure or paying them huge fees. I have no love for Epic but what they want is entirely reasonable.
The vast majority would almost certainly remain on the app store, and practically nothing would change for those apps in terms of security or convenience. Android has allowed downloads from other app stores for years, and not once has it posed a significant issue. Epic isn’t trying to force apps off the app store. They are only trying to open up options for other developers to distribute and make money without having to give it all to the monopoly that is Apple. This would give users the option to also move outside of the walled garden, but at no point would anyone be forced to do anything.
You seemed to have left out when Fortnite was removed from the play Store and lots of fake scam apps popped up in their place. So yes things would most likely change.
Plus there are a handful of app developers would would love to leave the App Store. Basecamp and proton come to mind. So now you have at least 3 app stores to add.
Android has allowed downloads from other app stores for years, and not once has it posed a significant issue
Lol. That’s not true. It constantly poses an issue and is one of the major sources for fraud on the platform.
Epic isn’t trying to force apps off the app store
I never said they were and it seems like you don’t get what they are trying to do. Currently, getting an app on the App Store entails clicking a “Get” button and responding to a prompt for confirmation/payment. It’s one prompt, every user can be 100% certain it’s secure, and it takes 2 seconds to confirm and validate your identity.
If Epic gets what it wants, every app could potentially have its own payment/confirmation prompt and every developer could have their own launcher and interface for even finding and downloading the apps. They have no way of verifying if the site they’re being forwarded to is secure, where their payment information is going, or whether the developer and payment site are even the same party which means their purchase data and other information is a vector to be compromised. On top of that, you have to enter separate payment and billing information for each launcher and every one has a separate email, data, and privacy policy which could allow them to do whatever they want with your data.
It is an objectively worse experience for 99% of people in every way.
I’m curious if you can point me to any specific instances of third party app stores being problematic for Android, perhaps I missed something.
In my experience, most users either don’t know about the third party app stores or don’t use them. Android has a setting to completely disable downloads from outside sources. If a user chooses to download from a third party app store, they are doing it of their own free will and they alone assume the same risks as browsing the internet normally. At that point it’s really just internet 101 that any competent person should understand. Anyone else can simply choose to stay in their walled garden of safety.
Also, for the most part, developers won’t develop for a third party store or make their own launcher unless there is a significant advantage to do so, like being forced to pay exorbitant prices to a monopolizing company in exchange for a false sense of “privacy and security”. Apps aren’t going to suddenly jump ship and make their own launchers. That costs a lot of money and Apple has curated a nice ecosystem. But, both developers and users should be allowed to choose what and how they install software on their personal devices. Android has proven that the wider user base will see virtually no impact and device security wont suddenly be compromised unless a specific user chooses to compromise their own device.
This is a very naive and, frankly, sheltered view. The majority of mobile malware and spyware is exclusive to Android. Also, it doesn’t matter if indie devs don’t jump ship. It’s enough to have major companies develop their own launchers. It’s objectively worse.
My views come directly from having owned both ios and android devices with their respective app stores. The majority of malware is on Android, but it’s hardly exclusive. Android devices also hold the majority of the market, by a very wide margin. The idea that ios is some kind of paragon of perfect security and privacy is incredibly naive and misguided.
It is exclusive, though. What malware exists for iOS? Nearly every issue is only on jailbroken phones. If it’s not in the App Store, it’s not something you can install. That’s the whole point. And, on top of that, this is about more than just malware and sideloading. This is about opening up a trusted process to several untrusted actors. These responses are ridiculous.
Every single one of these requires that either 1) The user’s phone be running an old version of iOS (which, by default, auto-updates unless someone has turned it off), 2) the user installs something on their PC first and installed an app from the App Store that was removed and is no longer available, or 3) the user be specifically targeted and not have Lockdown mode turned on. And this is over a span of almost 10 years as the first one of them was used in 2014.
I will concede that this obviously shows iOS is not immune but I never really said that it was. This does show, though, that iOS is far more secure than Android even if we only restrict the scenario to the official app markets on Android.
Over 100 in the last year with over 300 million devices infected vs. 17 over 15 years with 500,000 devices (including jailbroken devices and targeted attacks).
I don’t think that’s what they’re worried about. Apple has more money than any other company on the planet. They care about their brand perception and it’s obvious that this would hurt it in the same way that crappy, cheap parts would. Opening the iPhone up to other App Stores and payment systems would be a huge negative for that. In fact, one of the main reasons I like the iPhone and Apple’s ecosystem is that I don’t have to worry about vetting whether a purchase I’m making is secure or whether an app I’m downloading is potentially nefarious. I don’t want that. I just want it to work when I need it and to be able to find and pay for apps quickly and silently. Epic might be more trustworthy than some (I, personally, don’t trust them after their past behavior) but this isn’t just limited to Epic. It would mean that every app I download, potentially, would have their own launcher like on Steam and that situation fucking sucks despite how awesome Steam is.
Nothing about allowing third party app stores would require you to change your usage patterns. Apple could keep all their current rules for the App Store exactly the same, and then also allow sideloading. If you want the pure apple experience as you described, all you have to do is only use their App Store. Then those who want to sideload (and companies looking to avoid paying apple fees) can do so through their own channels. Opt-in makes it a win-win for everyone, well except Apple who is currently enjoying a monopoly and charging the fees to match.
They already allow side-loading (albeit, admittedly, via a cumbersome mechanism). That is not what Epic is asking for. You’re either ignorant of what changes Epic is demanding here or you’re being disingenuous in your argument.
Apple allows sideloading with a 7 day, 3 app limit via a cumbersome process. It’s intentionally limited to make it non-viable for most people. Epic wants to be able to publish their games without using Apple’s infrastructure or paying them huge fees. I have no love for Epic but what they want is entirely reasonable.
The vast majority would almost certainly remain on the app store, and practically nothing would change for those apps in terms of security or convenience. Android has allowed downloads from other app stores for years, and not once has it posed a significant issue. Epic isn’t trying to force apps off the app store. They are only trying to open up options for other developers to distribute and make money without having to give it all to the monopoly that is Apple. This would give users the option to also move outside of the walled garden, but at no point would anyone be forced to do anything.
You seemed to have left out when Fortnite was removed from the play Store and lots of fake scam apps popped up in their place. So yes things would most likely change.
Plus there are a handful of app developers would would love to leave the App Store. Basecamp and proton come to mind. So now you have at least 3 app stores to add.
Lol. That’s not true. It constantly poses an issue and is one of the major sources for fraud on the platform.
I never said they were and it seems like you don’t get what they are trying to do. Currently, getting an app on the App Store entails clicking a “Get” button and responding to a prompt for confirmation/payment. It’s one prompt, every user can be 100% certain it’s secure, and it takes 2 seconds to confirm and validate your identity.
If Epic gets what it wants, every app could potentially have its own payment/confirmation prompt and every developer could have their own launcher and interface for even finding and downloading the apps. They have no way of verifying if the site they’re being forwarded to is secure, where their payment information is going, or whether the developer and payment site are even the same party which means their purchase data and other information is a vector to be compromised. On top of that, you have to enter separate payment and billing information for each launcher and every one has a separate email, data, and privacy policy which could allow them to do whatever they want with your data.
It is an objectively worse experience for 99% of people in every way.
I’m curious if you can point me to any specific instances of third party app stores being problematic for Android, perhaps I missed something.
In my experience, most users either don’t know about the third party app stores or don’t use them. Android has a setting to completely disable downloads from outside sources. If a user chooses to download from a third party app store, they are doing it of their own free will and they alone assume the same risks as browsing the internet normally. At that point it’s really just internet 101 that any competent person should understand. Anyone else can simply choose to stay in their walled garden of safety.
Also, for the most part, developers won’t develop for a third party store or make their own launcher unless there is a significant advantage to do so, like being forced to pay exorbitant prices to a monopolizing company in exchange for a false sense of “privacy and security”. Apps aren’t going to suddenly jump ship and make their own launchers. That costs a lot of money and Apple has curated a nice ecosystem. But, both developers and users should be allowed to choose what and how they install software on their personal devices. Android has proven that the wider user base will see virtually no impact and device security wont suddenly be compromised unless a specific user chooses to compromise their own device.
This is a very naive and, frankly, sheltered view. The majority of mobile malware and spyware is exclusive to Android. Also, it doesn’t matter if indie devs don’t jump ship. It’s enough to have major companies develop their own launchers. It’s objectively worse.
My views come directly from having owned both ios and android devices with their respective app stores. The majority of malware is on Android, but it’s hardly exclusive. Android devices also hold the majority of the market, by a very wide margin. The idea that ios is some kind of paragon of perfect security and privacy is incredibly naive and misguided.
It is exclusive, though. What malware exists for iOS? Nearly every issue is only on jailbroken phones. If it’s not in the App Store, it’s not something you can install. That’s the whole point. And, on top of that, this is about more than just malware and sideloading. This is about opening up a trusted process to several untrusted actors. These responses are ridiculous.
https://www.wired.com/story/kaspersky-apple-ios-zero-day-intrusion/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/daveywinder/2023/09/23/ios-1701-critical-security-update-warning-for-all-iphone-users/?sh=794a8b094e83
https://www.tomsguide.com/news/iphone-apps-infected-malware
https://thehackernews.com/2016/03/how-to-hack-iphone.html?m=1
https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2022/01/08/apple-warning-iphone-hack-attack-vulnerability-new-iphone-update/?sh=73609cec659e
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kateoflahertyuk/2023/09/09/ios-1661-update-now-warning-issued-to-all-iphone-users/?sh=4cf4c51cf2f0
https://www.darkreading.com/dr-global/spyware-vendor-egyptian-orgs-ios-exploit-chain
Did you even read the details for any of these?
Every single one of these requires that either 1) The user’s phone be running an old version of iOS (which, by default, auto-updates unless someone has turned it off), 2) the user installs something on their PC first and installed an app from the App Store that was removed and is no longer available, or 3) the user be specifically targeted and not have Lockdown mode turned on. And this is over a span of almost 10 years as the first one of them was used in 2014.
I will concede that this obviously shows iOS is not immune but I never really said that it was. This does show, though, that iOS is far more secure than Android even if we only restrict the scenario to the official app markets on Android.
https://www.phonearena.com/news/android-malware-apps-master-list_id149175 vs. https://www.theiphonewiki.com/wiki/Malware_for_iOS
Over 100 in the last year with over 300 million devices infected vs. 17 over 15 years with 500,000 devices (including jailbroken devices and targeted attacks).
It’s not even a close comparison.