It would be so lovely if it were possible to open up Gaza whilst still containing Hamas. Do you have a proposal for how to do that? Don’t forget the containing Hamas part. You might not want to accept it but you’ve seen what Hamas will do if they have free access to Israel.
And we’ve seen the over 500k Palestinians that have been killed by Israel since 2010 due to Israeli occupation. You may not want to accept it, but you’re just justifying ethnic cleansing of a land this is very successfully being ethnically cleansed. And now the 2.4 million who remain are going to pay in blood for crimes they didn’t commit. Is this what you want? Is this what you believe is deserved?
Wherever you got that 500k number from, get rid of that as a source. It is wrong by several orders of magnitude. Since 2010 it’s 4,882.
Which of course is still 4,882 too many.
The only ethnic cleansing in Gaza was when all Jews were removed in 2005. It is not being ethnically cleansed of Gazans. I am not “justifying ethnic cleansing” in talking about the role Palestinian militants play in these deaths.
What I am trying to get through here is that Palestinian militants are complicit in and exploit these deaths because - until the barbaric rampage last Saturday - these deaths have the militants’ most effective weapon against Israel. They provoke Israel, Israel responds, civilians die, militants continue. When they take a break from provoking, Israel stops too. This is consistent. It’s observable over and over and over again, except it doesn’t become news until Israel responds.
Hamas’ provocation last weekend was so extreme the world sat up and noticed. Israel is responding. It’s the same pattern. You’ve now seen it yourself. It is still true that if Palestine lays down their weapons, there will be no more war; but if Israel lays down theirs, there will be no more Israel.
So back to my question to you, how do you propose to contain Hamas without harming civilians?
If you don’t have an answer, don’t fall back on your old IsraelBad tropes or attacks on me. Recognise that it is an impossible line for anyone to walk. Hamas, who very intentionally embed themselves in civilian centres for the precise reason that attacking them means killing civilians, cannot be contained without harming civilians. That’s not justifying or excusing their deaths at all. I am recognising the reality on the ground which must be dealt with.
Wherever you got that 500k number from, get rid of that as a source. It is wrong by several orders of magnitude. Since 2010 it’s 4,882.
My mistake, I was listing numbers off the top of my head and was admittedly overzealous, as happens in online discourse, and yes it was by multiple orders of magnitude. I will concede on this. The human toll for Palestine from 2008 through 2020 was 5,600 and 115,000 injured, while for Israel the death toll was 250 with 5,600 injured.[1]
The only ethnic cleansing in Gaza was when all Jews were removed in 2005. It is not being ethnically cleansed of Gazans. I am not “justifying ethnic cleansing” in talking about the role Palestinian militants play in these deaths.
Israel has for years refused to honor their obligations to respect the human rights of Palestinians, including their right to freedom of movement through occupied territory and their right to enter and leave their own country.[2] The Gaza strip is the world’s largest open-air prison, due to Israel’s blockade. It’s one of the most densely populated areas of the world, low life expectency with a median age of 18 years, and abysmal living standards. There’s a lack of access to education and medical treatment due to years of Israel bombing schools and hospitals. Israel has now cut off this nation from access to water, food, fuel and electricity, which due to aforementioned blockade, largely comes from Israel.[3]
It is still true that if Palestine lays down their weapons, there will be no more war
History shows otherwise. Perhaps there will be no more soldiers on the ground, but Palestine will continue to be denied their basic human rights, freedom of movement, sovereignty, education, and medical access. This is known because it was true before Hamas existed, and it is the reason Hamas has the power they do.
So back to my question to you, how do you propose to contain Hamas without harming civilians?
There are no easy solutions. Palestinians have been fighting oppression by killing civilians. Israel has been countering by killing civilians and further worsening conditions in occupied territories, which in turn makes Palestinians fight the increased oppression by killing more civilians.
Now, Hamas managed to break through the border, and kill several hundred Israeli civilians and take hostage of several hundred more. These are also real lives that matter, and I’m not going to downplay that at all.
But we’re currently on a path towards completely destroying every life that’s held on in occupied Palestinian territory. The solutions Netanyahu’s far-right government will come to is poised to be “The Final Solution”. There will be diplomacy. I’m not sure there’s even room for diplomacy. But there needs to be another way.
So tell me, if you’re not justifying the complete slaughter of all Palestinians in the region, what are you arguing for? If you’re not advocating ethnic cleansing, what is it you’re advocating for?
I’m not arguing that I have all the answers, I’m arguing that the answer the world’s agreed upon is the wrong one.
That’s not justifying or excusing their deaths at all. I am recognising the reality on the ground which must be dealt with.
If you’re defending those committing ethnic cleansing in front of you, you are justifying and excusing those deaths. If not to justify, what purpose is there to defend? Why wouldn’t you at least keep quiet so you can play the role of a complicit bystander, rather than speak up and become an avid advocate?
My mistake, I was listing numbers off the top of my head and was admittedly overzealous, as happens in online discourse, and yes it was by multiple orders of magnitude. I will concede on this.<
That was an straightforward bit of overzealotry to demonstrate. You’re far from the only one who does it, it’s VERY common and abetted by a significant disinformation system. You get caught up in emotions, exaggerate - here by 495,000!!! - and use that as if it were justification and substantiation of your arguments. Other people do it too, and you’ll have been persuaded by those exaggerations. The internet makes it worse but it’s been going for longer than Israel has existed as a modern state.
The Gaza strip is the world’s largest open-air prison, due to Israel’s blockade<
How many times do I have to write this before it gets through? The blockade is entirely due to militants (Hamas and all of the other groups, with a collective history going back to the Ottoman Empire) and the terrorism they bring to rid the entire land of infidels/Jews and enact sharia law. Yes, the blockade sucks. Yes, it hurts civilians. Perhaps you haven’t heard or seen what Hamas actually did - a level of barbarism Israel has NEVER done - beheading babies, raping dozens of women, parading their bodies through the streets, do I have to go on with this sickening list for you to recognise the depth of atrocities committed? They fucking beheaded babies. But the information is out there now. Trying to prevent this is why there is a blockade.
So tell me, if you’re not justifying the complete slaughter of all Palestinians in the region, what are you arguing for? If you’re not advocating ethnic cleansing, what is it you’re advocating for?<
Recognition of Hamas’ agency in this. Recognition of militants’ agency in this. Recognition of non-combatant Palestinian extremists’ agency in this. Recognition of other Muslim agency in this. Recognition that every de-escalation by Israel has been used by militants, not to build Palestine but to regroup and rearm. Recognition that Israel cannot fix this unilaterally and that there is no one for Israel to negotiate peace with.
Why wouldn’t you at least keep quiet so you can play the role of a complicit bystander, rather than speak up and become an avid advocate?<
And we come full circle in your post, where you start by recognising your overzealousness in getting the number of Palestinian deaths you’re accusing off so enormously, egregiously wrong, to you overzealously accusing me of this enormously, egregiously wrong sort of crap.
Your emotions have run away with you. However justified in those emotions you might feel, they’re leading you to thoroughly unjustifiable errors.
No. You’ve been wrong on so many points, including your assessments of me.
Your blockade comment above shows your lack of understanding of what I’ve written. This week’s atrocities from Hamas are the undeniable evidence of what the blockade had previously prevented. Very different. The blockade only exists because it is necessary to reduce Palestinian militants’ ability to slaughter Israelis. Some of those militants have shown you in undeniable terms how barbarously far they will go. That you were unaware of their intentions before Saturday doesn’t mean they sprang into being recently.
Yeah, you’re continuing to be clouded by emotion. I’ll stand by that.
It would be so lovely if it were possible to open up Gaza whilst still containing Hamas. Do you have a proposal for how to do that? Don’t forget the containing Hamas part. You might not want to accept it but you’ve seen what Hamas will do if they have free access to Israel.
And we’ve seen the over 500k Palestinians that have been killed by Israel since 2010 due to Israeli occupation. You may not want to accept it, but you’re just justifying ethnic cleansing of a land this is very successfully being ethnically cleansed. And now the 2.4 million who remain are going to pay in blood for crimes they didn’t commit. Is this what you want? Is this what you believe is deserved?
Wherever you got that 500k number from, get rid of that as a source. It is wrong by several orders of magnitude. Since 2010 it’s 4,882.
Which of course is still 4,882 too many.
The only ethnic cleansing in Gaza was when all Jews were removed in 2005. It is not being ethnically cleansed of Gazans. I am not “justifying ethnic cleansing” in talking about the role Palestinian militants play in these deaths.
What I am trying to get through here is that Palestinian militants are complicit in and exploit these deaths because - until the barbaric rampage last Saturday - these deaths have the militants’ most effective weapon against Israel. They provoke Israel, Israel responds, civilians die, militants continue. When they take a break from provoking, Israel stops too. This is consistent. It’s observable over and over and over again, except it doesn’t become news until Israel responds.
Hamas’ provocation last weekend was so extreme the world sat up and noticed. Israel is responding. It’s the same pattern. You’ve now seen it yourself. It is still true that if Palestine lays down their weapons, there will be no more war; but if Israel lays down theirs, there will be no more Israel.
So back to my question to you, how do you propose to contain Hamas without harming civilians?
If you don’t have an answer, don’t fall back on your old IsraelBad tropes or attacks on me. Recognise that it is an impossible line for anyone to walk. Hamas, who very intentionally embed themselves in civilian centres for the precise reason that attacking them means killing civilians, cannot be contained without harming civilians. That’s not justifying or excusing their deaths at all. I am recognising the reality on the ground which must be dealt with.
My mistake, I was listing numbers off the top of my head and was admittedly overzealous, as happens in online discourse, and yes it was by multiple orders of magnitude. I will concede on this. The human toll for Palestine from 2008 through 2020 was 5,600 and 115,000 injured, while for Israel the death toll was 250 with 5,600 injured.[1]
Israel has for years refused to honor their obligations to respect the human rights of Palestinians, including their right to freedom of movement through occupied territory and their right to enter and leave their own country.[2] The Gaza strip is the world’s largest open-air prison, due to Israel’s blockade. It’s one of the most densely populated areas of the world, low life expectency with a median age of 18 years, and abysmal living standards. There’s a lack of access to education and medical treatment due to years of Israel bombing schools and hospitals. Israel has now cut off this nation from access to water, food, fuel and electricity, which due to aforementioned blockade, largely comes from Israel.[3]
History shows otherwise. Perhaps there will be no more soldiers on the ground, but Palestine will continue to be denied their basic human rights, freedom of movement, sovereignty, education, and medical access. This is known because it was true before Hamas existed, and it is the reason Hamas has the power they do.
There are no easy solutions. Palestinians have been fighting oppression by killing civilians. Israel has been countering by killing civilians and further worsening conditions in occupied territories, which in turn makes Palestinians fight the increased oppression by killing more civilians.
Now, Hamas managed to break through the border, and kill several hundred Israeli civilians and take hostage of several hundred more. These are also real lives that matter, and I’m not going to downplay that at all.
But we’re currently on a path towards completely destroying every life that’s held on in occupied Palestinian territory. The solutions Netanyahu’s far-right government will come to is poised to be “The Final Solution”. There will be diplomacy. I’m not sure there’s even room for diplomacy. But there needs to be another way.
So tell me, if you’re not justifying the complete slaughter of all Palestinians in the region, what are you arguing for? If you’re not advocating ethnic cleansing, what is it you’re advocating for?
I’m not arguing that I have all the answers, I’m arguing that the answer the world’s agreed upon is the wrong one.
If you’re defending those committing ethnic cleansing in front of you, you are justifying and excusing those deaths. If not to justify, what purpose is there to defend? Why wouldn’t you at least keep quiet so you can play the role of a complicit bystander, rather than speak up and become an avid advocate?
https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/ ↩︎
https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15 ↩︎
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/11/what-is-gaza-strip-the-besieged-palestinian-enclave-under-israeli-assault ↩︎
That was an straightforward bit of overzealotry to demonstrate. You’re far from the only one who does it, it’s VERY common and abetted by a significant disinformation system. You get caught up in emotions, exaggerate - here by 495,000!!! - and use that as if it were justification and substantiation of your arguments. Other people do it too, and you’ll have been persuaded by those exaggerations. The internet makes it worse but it’s been going for longer than Israel has existed as a modern state.
How many times do I have to write this before it gets through? The blockade is entirely due to militants (Hamas and all of the other groups, with a collective history going back to the Ottoman Empire) and the terrorism they bring to rid the entire land of infidels/Jews and enact sharia law. Yes, the blockade sucks. Yes, it hurts civilians. Perhaps you haven’t heard or seen what Hamas actually did - a level of barbarism Israel has NEVER done - beheading babies, raping dozens of women, parading their bodies through the streets, do I have to go on with this sickening list for you to recognise the depth of atrocities committed? They fucking beheaded babies. But the information is out there now. Trying to prevent this is why there is a blockade.
Recognition of Hamas’ agency in this. Recognition of militants’ agency in this. Recognition of non-combatant Palestinian extremists’ agency in this. Recognition of other Muslim agency in this. Recognition that every de-escalation by Israel has been used by militants, not to build Palestine but to regroup and rearm. Recognition that Israel cannot fix this unilaterally and that there is no one for Israel to negotiate peace with.
And we come full circle in your post, where you start by recognising your overzealousness in getting the number of Palestinian deaths you’re accusing off so enormously, egregiously wrong, to you overzealously accusing me of this enormously, egregiously wrong sort of crap.
Your emotions have run away with you. However justified in those emotions you might feel, they’re leading you to thoroughly unjustifiable errors.
deleted by creator
No. You’ve been wrong on so many points, including your assessments of me.
Your blockade comment above shows your lack of understanding of what I’ve written. This week’s atrocities from Hamas are the undeniable evidence of what the blockade had previously prevented. Very different. The blockade only exists because it is necessary to reduce Palestinian militants’ ability to slaughter Israelis. Some of those militants have shown you in undeniable terms how barbarously far they will go. That you were unaware of their intentions before Saturday doesn’t mean they sprang into being recently.
Yeah, you’re continuing to be clouded by emotion. I’ll stand by that.