Yeah newer archeology finds strongly suggest that exodus never happened, ancient Hebrews were just one of the canaanite tribes that gained domination over their region and per usual for that time and place, placed their own tribal deity over all others. Notably the most popular local god of harvest, and natural cycle Baal (all the vilification of Baal in bible was certainly scrap of that propaganda left). Yahweh even stole Baal name, meaning only “Lord”. Yahweh being god of war also fits by all accounts. Judaism was formed after ancient state of Israel fell so that’s how the victorious god of war gets to hate his people, they just lost lmao. And most texts were compliled at their lowest point as independent culture, in Babylon, which also explains some peculiarities - city rabbis living in richest city in the world were depicting the past they couldn’t really imagine.
About Mary and Joseph it starts to click if you would assume she was not just a poor girl but daughter of a local notable - she get pregnant (Pantera? lol maybe, he did existed, his tombstone was found) in a tender age of 13 or 14, scandal is brewing, but her family found her an older and respected guy to marry, Joseph, who would take the child for his own. Some hand polishing later the Holy Family is created (now that is sheer assumption by me without single proof but probably better than the official version).
The three guys that showed up at her doorstep to give her gifts were probably people that she fucked dated at some point in her life; or at the very least, were her simps.
XD local pedo convention, how did this turned to 3 kings.
Notably the most popular local god of harvest, and natural cycle Baal (all the vilification of Baal in bible was certainly scrap of that propaganda left).
Unbelievable. Imagine demonizing a deity of something as harmless and peaceful as harvest and natural cycle.
Judaism was formed after ancient state of Israel fell so that’s how the victorious god of war gets to hate his people, they just lost lmao
There’s nothing more pathetic than a so-called deity hating their own worshippers. Couldn’t he help his worshippers out? Being a god of war and all.
Also, if Mary indeed was the daughter of a local noble, wouldn’t her parents be able to just use their connections/power/money to just get her out of trouble? But then again I suppose not, as this was from the times where women were barely considered human for whatever reason.
XD local pedo convention, how did this turned to 3 kings.
For your info Genesis 1 is newer than Genesis2, and 1 is made after Enuma Elish, which is the creation myth in honor of Marduk, the patron deity of the Akkadians, who kicked Hebrews’s asses and sent them to Babylon.
I mean the people were at this point mixed beyond belief, Babylon was the biggest melting pot in this era, but the ruling dynasty and aristocracy were Chaldean, though they entirely embraced local culture and even were famed for continuation and development of culture and science.
Unbelievable. Imagine demonizing a deity of something as harmless and peaceful as harvest and natural cycle.
Tbh he was not harmless deity. Think more of a late antique Dionysos or Mithra, he was born, fought with his enemies, die and then be resurrected as many other antique gods which were ultimately hijacked to form the myth of the resurrection of Christ (this always seemed to me like loosely fitting magic addition put there to entice the pagans to join).
There’s nothing more pathetic than a so-called deity hating their own worshippers. Couldn’t he help his worshippers out? Being a god of war and all.
Well he once did send Engels (whoops, german version) angel to kill hundreds of thousands Assyrians, but later he seems to cool off on that. I mean it is pretty rational for war god to hate his people for constantly losing, but then why even worship him? The Lost Tribes did exactly that i bet.
Also, if Mary indeed was the daughter of a local noble, wouldn’t her parents be able to just use their connections/power/money to just get her out of trouble?
They did it. They might not be some high noble but local gentry, so by that epoch standards avoiding the scandal while not killing or exiling anyone was pretty successful from the society point of view. And since Jesus was apparently also part of local gentry the scandal was avoided. Well if we go along that line i bet there was no scandal at all and Mary was just wed to Joseph quite conventionally and Jesus was concieved also pretty conventionally :)
They were kings?
Traditionally they are Magi i think, but also very often called and depicted as “kings” in catholicism at least. We just had 06.01 holiday of Epiphany, in Poland called “Święto Trzech Króli” (“Three Kings’ Day”) and it’s… a state holiday, free from work, if you ever had doubts how much modern Poland is secular state.
I mean it is pretty rational for war god to hate his people for constantly losing, but then why even worship him?
I guess to prove to him that they’re still worth something in some other way? As self-punishment for disappointing their deity?
We just had 06.01 holiday of Epiphany, in Poland called “Święto Trzech Króli” (“Three Kings’ Day”) and it’s… a state holiday, free from work, if you ever had doubts how much modern Poland is secular state.
What places were they kings of then? Also interesting that Kings would just show up on their own just to deliver gifts to a girl they know nothing about… unless, like I said, they were her simps. (But even then wouldn’t they just send their men instead? Just to keep their reputation from sullying)
Also, can’t complain about a free holiday. But that gets me thinking, did Jesus ever teach/preach about Ethnonationalism? It’s honestly mesmerizing that for a Christian Nation, its people would rather be dicks towards people that aren’t exactly 100% them.
Christianity, especially catholicism, is in fact the most syncretic religion in history full of things taken from pagan religions, and then put under the single hegemony. but it did immensely helped it spread and they did it even centuries later. In this case, read about resurrecting gods, there was many of them and especially Dionysus and Mithra were straight up competition for early christianity. If not for emperor Constantine, we might be as well discussing about Mithraism right now (which would be probably very much identical to christianity).
I guess to prove to him that they’re still worth something in some other way? As self-punishment for disappointing their deity?
Well, martyrdom and mortification is very popular in abrahamic religions for a reason.
What places were they kings of then?
Unspecified. It is mostly folk thing that became popular for no reason.
It’s honestly mesmerizing that for a Christian Nation, its people would rather be dicks towards people that aren’t exactly 100% them.
Problem is, you can take the Bible, and by creative quoting, you will get justification for basically anything.
Well he once did send Engels (whoops, german version) angel to kill hundreds of thousands Assyrians
So if I read your posts right, the Hebrews coped and seethed so hard over getting their asses kicked repeatedly they made up stories about their imaginary friend genociding the ones who beat them? If so, that is a literally a cope of biblical proportions.
Well they did outlasted Assyrians so they had the last word.
Anyway that siege of Jerusalem did really happened, circa 701 BCE, Assyrians under king Sennaherib against Judeans of king Hezekiah. Unknown what happened, but the city was not captured. Most likely the besieging army suffered sudden and horrible plague (Herodotus also note the event, though he wrote about mice infestation) like bubonic plague or something like this. Judah was nominally vassalized and paid tribut but was not conquered. Also Assyrian army was no way 200000 strong, even 20000 was streching it.
Overall, it is pretty normal in those times to attribute sudden plague saving their skin (NeoAssyrian empire was not very merciful conqueror) to their god. Hell, a lot of Poles even said the same about victory over Soviets in 1920 and that battle was pretty good documented as genuine rational conclusion by even Soviets.
Assyrians perdured too, but they were culturally converted already into neo Babylonians, and then when the Persians came, the people regarded Cyrus the great like a hero, since it was the first emperor to abolish slavery since the conception of religion in the middle east.
There was also a sort of “super proto socialist” revolution in some Sumerian city-state, but it falled rapidly to Sargon of Akkad, tho. (If I remember well). Meaning that it was anecdotal.
Ah, and it was during the Zoroastrian(Persian) influence that the Hebrews started to bootleg monolatry.
Neo Assyrian empire were destroyed by Babylonians and culturally they were very similar at this point due to millenia of history they had with one another.
I don’t think there was any protosocialist revolution in Sumer, it was more or less the decay of primitive communism as the palace economy developed into full blown theocratic monarchy and this in the empire. I mean right before Sargon conquered Sumer, one of the local rulers (Lugal-zaggesi) managed to finally unite it and it would not be probably end since even his titulature suggest imperial ambitions, and he had at least one predecessor who did expanded beyond the Sumer. But alas we will never know, Sargon did to him what he probably wanted to do to Sargon, just faster.
Ah, and it was during the Zoroastrian(Persian) influence that the Hebrews started to bootleg monolatry.
I wonder how much influence that had, since Achaemenids weren’t pushing their religion on their subjects.
While I’m starting to remember what you said abour Sargon and all that as correct, the thing about Zoroastrians, is that they were in great consideration and loved and admired by a lot of people by their teachings, but never held a propagandístic teaching, and was ethnocentric,meaning that the responsibility of adoration was over the Persians themselves, but that salvation was universal, for Ahura Mazda would save everyone good enough, and who were not with redeeming qualities, sent to hell to purify themselves, and then go to Paradaija(the word Paradise is from Persian origin, yes), because the main perpetrator of wickedness is Angra Mainyu, the rest are victims (which, by the way, the notion we have of Satan is also copied from Angra, sincr Satan was literally just a god of judgement to see if people were actually good or not).
Ah, yes. Zoroastrianism is also escathologic, and wait for a savior born from a Virgin, without sin, to form an army to destroy Angra Mainyu once and for all, so Ahura Mazda can make the Earth into a paradise. Pretty much like Deutero Isaiah.
Yeah newer archeology finds strongly suggest that exodus never happened, ancient Hebrews were just one of the canaanite tribes that gained domination over their region and per usual for that time and place, placed their own tribal deity over all others. Notably the most popular local god of harvest, and natural cycle Baal (all the vilification of Baal in bible was certainly scrap of that propaganda left). Yahweh even stole Baal name, meaning only “Lord”. Yahweh being god of war also fits by all accounts. Judaism was formed after ancient state of Israel fell so that’s how the victorious god of war gets to hate his people, they just lost lmao. And most texts were compliled at their lowest point as independent culture, in Babylon, which also explains some peculiarities - city rabbis living in richest city in the world were depicting the past they couldn’t really imagine.
About Mary and Joseph it starts to click if you would assume she was not just a poor girl but daughter of a local notable - she get pregnant (Pantera? lol maybe, he did existed, his tombstone was found) in a tender age of 13 or 14, scandal is brewing, but her family found her an older and respected guy to marry, Joseph, who would take the child for his own. Some hand polishing later the Holy Family is created (now that is sheer assumption by me without single proof but probably better than the official version).
XD local pedo convention, how did this turned to 3 kings.
Unbelievable. Imagine demonizing a deity of something as harmless and peaceful as harvest and natural cycle.
There’s nothing more pathetic than a so-called deity hating their own worshippers. Couldn’t he help his worshippers out? Being a god of war and all.
Also, if Mary indeed was the daughter of a local noble, wouldn’t her parents be able to just use their connections/power/money to just get her out of trouble?
But then again I suppose not, as this was from the times where women were barely considered human for whatever reason.They were kings? o.o
For your info Genesis 1 is newer than Genesis2, and 1 is made after Enuma Elish, which is the creation myth in honor of Marduk, the patron deity of the Akkadians, who kicked Hebrews’s asses and sent them to Babylon.
Ancient copium. Also it were Chaldeans not Akkadians iirc that took Hebrews to Babylon.
Chaldeans, really? The neobabylonians were Chaldeans? Man, I have to read again all fucking Mesopotamina history hahahaha
I mean the people were at this point mixed beyond belief, Babylon was the biggest melting pot in this era, but the ruling dynasty and aristocracy were Chaldean, though they entirely embraced local culture and even were famed for continuation and development of culture and science.
Tbh he was not harmless deity. Think more of a late antique Dionysos or Mithra, he was born, fought with his enemies, die and then be resurrected as many other antique gods which were ultimately hijacked to form the myth of the resurrection of Christ (this always seemed to me like loosely fitting magic addition put there to entice the pagans to join).
Well he once did send
Engels (whoops, german version)angel to kill hundreds of thousands Assyrians, but later he seems to cool off on that. I mean it is pretty rational for war god to hate his people for constantly losing, but then why even worship him? The Lost Tribes did exactly that i bet.They did it. They might not be some high noble but local gentry, so by that epoch standards avoiding the scandal while not killing or exiling anyone was pretty successful from the society point of view. And since Jesus was apparently also part of local gentry the scandal was avoided. Well if we go along that line i bet there was no scandal at all and Mary was just wed to Joseph quite conventionally and Jesus was concieved also pretty conventionally :)
Traditionally they are Magi i think, but also very often called and depicted as “kings” in catholicism at least. We just had 06.01 holiday of Epiphany, in Poland called “Święto Trzech Króli” (“Three Kings’ Day”) and it’s… a state holiday, free from work, if you ever had doubts how much modern Poland is secular state.
Hijacked? How?
I guess to prove to him that they’re still worth something in some other way? As self-punishment for disappointing their deity?
What places were they kings of then?
Also interesting that Kings would just show up on their own just to deliver gifts to a girl they know nothing about… unless, like I said, they were her simps. (But even then wouldn’t they just send their men instead? Just to keep their reputation from sullying)Also, can’t complain about a free holiday. But that gets me thinking, did Jesus ever teach/preach about Ethnonationalism? It’s honestly mesmerizing that for a Christian Nation, its people would rather be dicks towards people that aren’t exactly 100% them.
Christianity, especially catholicism, is in fact the most syncretic religion in history full of things taken from pagan religions, and then put under the single hegemony. but it did immensely helped it spread and they did it even centuries later. In this case, read about resurrecting gods, there was many of them and especially Dionysus and Mithra were straight up competition for early christianity. If not for emperor Constantine, we might be as well discussing about Mithraism right now (which would be probably very much identical to christianity).
Well, martyrdom and mortification is very popular in abrahamic religions for a reason.
Unspecified. It is mostly folk thing that became popular for no reason.
Problem is, you can take the Bible, and by creative quoting, you will get justification for basically anything.
So if I read your posts right, the Hebrews coped and seethed so hard over getting their asses kicked repeatedly they made up stories about their imaginary friend genociding the ones who beat them? If so, that is a literally a cope of biblical proportions.
Well they did outlasted Assyrians so they had the last word.
Anyway that siege of Jerusalem did really happened, circa 701 BCE, Assyrians under king Sennaherib against Judeans of king Hezekiah. Unknown what happened, but the city was not captured. Most likely the besieging army suffered sudden and horrible plague (Herodotus also note the event, though he wrote about mice infestation) like bubonic plague or something like this. Judah was nominally vassalized and paid tribut but was not conquered. Also Assyrian army was no way 200000 strong, even 20000 was streching it.
Overall, it is pretty normal in those times to attribute sudden plague saving their skin (NeoAssyrian empire was not very merciful conqueror) to their god. Hell, a lot of Poles even said the same about victory over Soviets in 1920 and that battle was pretty good documented as genuine rational conclusion by even Soviets.
Assyrians perdured too, but they were culturally converted already into neo Babylonians, and then when the Persians came, the people regarded Cyrus the great like a hero, since it was the first emperor to abolish slavery since the conception of religion in the middle east. There was also a sort of “super proto socialist” revolution in some Sumerian city-state, but it falled rapidly to Sargon of Akkad, tho. (If I remember well). Meaning that it was anecdotal.
Ah, and it was during the Zoroastrian(Persian) influence that the Hebrews started to bootleg monolatry.
Neo Assyrian empire were destroyed by Babylonians and culturally they were very similar at this point due to millenia of history they had with one another.
I don’t think there was any protosocialist revolution in Sumer, it was more or less the decay of primitive communism as the palace economy developed into full blown theocratic monarchy and this in the empire. I mean right before Sargon conquered Sumer, one of the local rulers (Lugal-zaggesi) managed to finally unite it and it would not be probably end since even his titulature suggest imperial ambitions, and he had at least one predecessor who did expanded beyond the Sumer. But alas we will never know, Sargon did to him what he probably wanted to do to Sargon, just faster.
I wonder how much influence that had, since Achaemenids weren’t pushing their religion on their subjects.
While I’m starting to remember what you said abour Sargon and all that as correct, the thing about Zoroastrians, is that they were in great consideration and loved and admired by a lot of people by their teachings, but never held a propagandístic teaching, and was ethnocentric,meaning that the responsibility of adoration was over the Persians themselves, but that salvation was universal, for Ahura Mazda would save everyone good enough, and who were not with redeeming qualities, sent to hell to purify themselves, and then go to Paradaija(the word Paradise is from Persian origin, yes), because the main perpetrator of wickedness is Angra Mainyu, the rest are victims (which, by the way, the notion we have of Satan is also copied from Angra, sincr Satan was literally just a god of judgement to see if people were actually good or not).
Ah, yes. Zoroastrianism is also escathologic, and wait for a savior born from a Virgin, without sin, to form an army to destroy Angra Mainyu once and for all, so Ahura Mazda can make the Earth into a paradise. Pretty much like Deutero Isaiah.
Yeah basically every religion is more or less syncretic due to how culture generally work.