Because human progress is about making things that do not exist. Saying that something doesn’t exist currently does not mean it cannot exist.
Before the french revolution there were no democratic countries. back then you could say “Name one democratic country. Oh you can’t? Guess democracy doesn’t work.” and it would be just as valid as your claim now.
Fair point but communism hasn’t been effectively implemented because it’s being purposely stifled, it’s because it’s a crap system.
I guess if you take the best aspects of communism and ignore the history of how shitty it is then maybe you can theoretically imagine a successful version of it. But I don’t need to hypothesize such a scenario. There’s plenty of data and historical facts that completely prove my point
Humanity has progressed a lot in even the last 20 years. Using historical facts to prove something doesn’t work is not effective under these circumstances.
Also communism (in the classical sense) doesn’t really have a practical history, as no country on the planet has purposefully reached it.
The soviet union or china were never communist. They were both horrific state capitalist dictatorships.
And capitalism is also crap. For example look at the impending climate catastrophe.
I’ll never say capitalism is perfect but it’s a system that works - and at its best, it works remarkably well. I hear this argument a lot that communism hasn’t implemented the way it should be. Has there ever been a government that came close to what you would consider “almost good enough” communism?
Communism is by definition a stateless, moneyless, classless society. If any of these exist it is not communism.
There is no “almost good enough”. You can’t have almost classless.
If you have classes you aren’t classless, and in a single party system the party members are a class.
I put it to you that capitalism doesn’t work. It is an inherently corrupt system that will inevitably end in the destruction of everything.
Capitalism is unsustainable. Built on the myth of perpetual growth and willing to kill everything on this planet to achieve that.
Given a long enough time-frame all wealth and decision making capabilities under a capitalism will be consolidated in the hands of a couple of rich companies that will only care about economic growth. Damn the consequences.
/sidenote. I am not actually a communist but an Anarchist. I oppose all unjust hierarchies.
Money, state and class just happen to all fit under this definition and because of that I also support communism.
Most economic systems are inherently morally neutral. They’re just tools with no sentience - so I don’t understand how you can say capitalism is inherently corrupt when you literally said communism hasn’t been implemented properly in any country or state. It seems to me like communism is more flawed if it can be exploited more easily.
Please don’t say you’re an anarchist or I’ll have even less respect for you. 😂
Seriously, though, I used to be a pretty radical socialist until I did some real research (not trying to insult you, I mean that I looked at my beliefs through a very critical lens and my ideologies didn’t stand up to real scrutiny) and soul searching to end up leaning closer to what you would call a soc-dem.
I genuinely believe that you communists and anarchists want better living standards for every human on earth. But I think you guys have been lied to about the evils of capitalism and how good the system can truly be. And I concede that the extreme disparities between the rich and poor in a capitalist system are pretty fucking gross.
so as I was trying to answer this I came across this little part. Here is a list of a couple of anarchist (and therefor communist) societies.
None of these lasted for very long because they were quickly either subverted or destroyed by statists. This, for me, is not a flaw of anarchism (or communism) as a concept and instead happened because the movement did not reach critical mass. Not enough people believed in the system for it to work.
Also note under the Russian revolution chapter the “”“communists”“” were the enemy, as they were the ones that destroyed the systems that were actually communists in order to create their state capitalist state,
But I still insist that even if these examples weren’t there it proves nothing about the potential of the system.
Progress is making things that do not exist. The statement that something doesn’t exist is not proof that it can’t.
Also if you look at my post history I have done a lot of reflecting on why I believe in anarchism and nothing has made me doubt that it is possible. The only thing stopping it is the greed of people, and as we are seeing what that causes I am hoping that too gets fixed.
Also I absolutely support any form of government you want to create as long as you allow me to live in my commune. In that sense I am a federalist. I believe that on a macro scale humanity works best if different societies can all coexist together, so everyone can find their place. I actually see it as macro-anarchism, the same fundamental beliefs that govern an anarchist society implemented on all of humanity.
Because human progress is about making things that do not exist. Saying that something doesn’t exist currently does not mean it cannot exist.
Before the french revolution there were no democratic countries. back then you could say “Name one democratic country. Oh you can’t? Guess democracy doesn’t work.” and it would be just as valid as your claim now.
Fair point but communism hasn’t been effectively implemented because it’s being purposely stifled, it’s because it’s a crap system.
I guess if you take the best aspects of communism and ignore the history of how shitty it is then maybe you can theoretically imagine a successful version of it. But I don’t need to hypothesize such a scenario. There’s plenty of data and historical facts that completely prove my point
Humanity has progressed a lot in even the last 20 years. Using historical facts to prove something doesn’t work is not effective under these circumstances.
Also communism (in the classical sense) doesn’t really have a practical history, as no country on the planet has purposefully reached it.
The soviet union or china were never communist. They were both horrific state capitalist dictatorships.
And capitalism is also crap. For example look at the impending climate catastrophe.
I’ll never say capitalism is perfect but it’s a system that works - and at its best, it works remarkably well. I hear this argument a lot that communism hasn’t implemented the way it should be. Has there ever been a government that came close to what you would consider “almost good enough” communism?
Communism is by definition a stateless, moneyless, classless society. If any of these exist it is not communism. There is no “almost good enough”. You can’t have almost classless. If you have classes you aren’t classless, and in a single party system the party members are a class.
I put it to you that capitalism doesn’t work. It is an inherently corrupt system that will inevitably end in the destruction of everything. Capitalism is unsustainable. Built on the myth of perpetual growth and willing to kill everything on this planet to achieve that. Given a long enough time-frame all wealth and decision making capabilities under a capitalism will be consolidated in the hands of a couple of rich companies that will only care about economic growth. Damn the consequences.
/sidenote. I am not actually a communist but an Anarchist. I oppose all unjust hierarchies. Money, state and class just happen to all fit under this definition and because of that I also support communism.
Most economic systems are inherently morally neutral. They’re just tools with no sentience - so I don’t understand how you can say capitalism is inherently corrupt when you literally said communism hasn’t been implemented properly in any country or state. It seems to me like communism is more flawed if it can be exploited more easily.
Please don’t say you’re an anarchist or I’ll have even less respect for you. 😂
Seriously, though, I used to be a pretty radical socialist until I did some real research (not trying to insult you, I mean that I looked at my beliefs through a very critical lens and my ideologies didn’t stand up to real scrutiny) and soul searching to end up leaning closer to what you would call a soc-dem.
I genuinely believe that you communists and anarchists want better living standards for every human on earth. But I think you guys have been lied to about the evils of capitalism and how good the system can truly be. And I concede that the extreme disparities between the rich and poor in a capitalist system are pretty fucking gross.
so as I was trying to answer this I came across this little part. Here is a list of a couple of anarchist (and therefor communist) societies.
None of these lasted for very long because they were quickly either subverted or destroyed by statists. This, for me, is not a flaw of anarchism (or communism) as a concept and instead happened because the movement did not reach critical mass. Not enough people believed in the system for it to work.
Also note under the Russian revolution chapter the “”“communists”“” were the enemy, as they were the ones that destroyed the systems that were actually communists in order to create their state capitalist state,
But I still insist that even if these examples weren’t there it proves nothing about the potential of the system. Progress is making things that do not exist. The statement that something doesn’t exist is not proof that it can’t.
Also if you look at my post history I have done a lot of reflecting on why I believe in anarchism and nothing has made me doubt that it is possible. The only thing stopping it is the greed of people, and as we are seeing what that causes I am hoping that too gets fixed.
Also I absolutely support any form of government you want to create as long as you allow me to live in my commune. In that sense I am a federalist. I believe that on a macro scale humanity works best if different societies can all coexist together, so everyone can find their place. I actually see it as macro-anarchism, the same fundamental beliefs that govern an anarchist society implemented on all of humanity.