These Lenin/Stalin worship posts are shameful. You are being as big of a fool as neonazis. Instead of wasting time with memes learn history and stop worship idiots.
Gulags were prisons. And they were, in many ways, more humane and rehabilitation-focused than any Western prisons. This is scratching the surface of the issue.
The real issue is you not bothering to fathom that the capitalists will fight tooth and nail, including psychologically, to stop the rise of the singular ideology that threatens their millenia of power.
I understand that there is a mountain of propaganda convincing you that Stalin was evil, but literally name one thing supposedly wrong witb LENIN. Nothing, not even the usual CIA and Nazis could be bothered to make up stories about him.
You are operating under the assumption of, “well, all the people around me say these people are evil, so, they must be!”
In case people are still reading this thread, Kronstadt were Whites (not the skin kind, the White army). Some at Kronstadt called themselves anarchists but the group otherwise committed pogroms and was fighting for the White army. Not that OP really cared, all he wanted was to attribute something to Lenin to criticize him for.
What I have to say is to point you towards the Dessalines git post and ask you to find the issues with his sources or his statements wikipedia is not an unbiased or in depth source, look at the primary sources of your information who they were how they got that information. Like Dessalines looked at it and countered it with good sources now you are pointing back at the target of the Dessalines criticism without even acknowledging the criticism. I have no problems with disagreement, as long as its in good faith but you glossing over and huge documentation of criticism and just repeating your point cause Wikipedia says so does not look like good faith
Can’t you see that you are pretty much doing psyop yourself? There’s no such thing as a good dictator. Stalin isn’t good because they sentenced to dead less political prisoners than the Tsar or Hitler. They are all shit. Do not worship a dictator.
You can find plenty of communist criticisms of Stalin. They appear on this forum from time to time.
Maybe try engaging earnestly and give specifics. You may get even more context from us that might change your view. Or, hell, we might even agree with you. Stalin did good things. He also did some shit things.
Instead, you’re relying off of the Stalin boogeyman myth that even the US government has admitted is false.
The CIA admitted they invented the hogwash about Stalin being a dictator, and admitted he was merely the “captain of a team.”
The only reason we think of him as a “dictator” here in the West is because anybody that has resisted the West’s demands for total prostration is a “dictator.” If you want examples of REAL dictators you should look to all of the right-wing egotistic maniacs the U.S. government sponsored from centuries past to the present.
There is a difference between a “dictator” who kills fascists, capitalists, monarchists, slavers and saboteurs trying to actively destroy a system that is saving and uplifting hundreds of millions of lives, and an ACTUAL dictator who kills twice that number in women, children, socialists, racial minorities, sexual minorities, religious minorities, while plundering the country and essentially enslaving their own populace.
If you kill a thousand or a million there’s a big difference but you are a murderer regardless. You don’t have to worship any dictator and you don’t have to defend any of them.
They could have shot Hitler himself but that does not change the fact that they were a brutal dictator on their own who sentenced to death thousand of innocents. Do now worship this guy or try to downplay what he did, this is exactly as bad as neonazi denialism
Everybody knows that Wikipedia is literally unrefutable fact, especially on controversial or political topics. Why would someone lie or omit facts on the internet???
Next you’re going to tell me that I can’t trust CIA press releases too!!!
Usually Wikipedia is okay if, as it says, you use it as ‘a starting point for serious research, not an endpoint.’ The problem is that, in practice, roughly 95% of the people referencing it don’t use it this way and instead mistake it as a substitute for serious research.
It’s basically the Walmart of educational materials.
Everyone knows teachers love it when you use Wikipedia in school, it’s a real problem in some high schools because it’s a trick to get an easy A, if your teacher assigns you a topic for a paper you can just send them the wikipedia link for it and they’ll be forced to give you an A because you don’t actually need to do the work yourself in school
I find this one fascinating. I’m trying to follow this thought process.
“Stalin is an evil Russian Dictator! and these evil tankies worship him! Putin is also an evil Russian Dictator therefore these evil tankies will agree with anything he says because they like Russian Dictators!”
This person honestly seems to think solely in terms of “sports team politics” and doesn’t seem to understand that people can believe or not believe something based on evidence, not on what “their team” says is true.
bro you cannot be serious…“hmm why would putin and his oligarchic bros spread misinformation about socialism” dont tell me you’re one of those liberals who think russia is still socialist
Not getting guillotined. Why are libs completely incapable of empathising with people acting in self-serving ways? If the Russian youth are educated on the benefits of a revolution, they’ll want a revolution. If they’re told maintaining the status quo is for everyone’s benefit, they’ll want to keep the status quo where Putin is rich and headed.
You could ask the same question about the CIA or the counter revolutionary forces around the world or the Western press. Why is it that people who are part of the bourgeoisie do their best to discredit socialists efforts? Socialist theorists would say it is to distract the working class from looking beyond capitalism, creating an imaginary enemy in the alternative option that is socialism.
All bourgeois leaders and especially those in post-socialist countries have a vested interest in denigrating and slandering the political and economic system of the Soviet Union because that is the best way to prevent a resurgence of enthusiasm for socialism which is a threat to their power and the capitalist system they have built.
Gee, what would capitalist system, existing only because the previous one was brutally and unlawfully destroyed against the will of the peopl, gain on smearing that previous system.
For a culture and civilisation supposedly build on Roman roots westerners awfully rarily seem to ask fundamental question of “qui bono?”.
It’s bullshit no matter who says it - and especially a notorious anti-communist liberal like Putin - because it’s simply not borne out by the evidence.
There’s just as much the CIA can patch, Wikipedia still provide a good account of famous historical events and plenty cross links, you can search for yourself and read the individual history of many who died on gulags or that got send there. Not even the CIA can spin history 360 degrees
For starters you could read actual socialist theory but I know you won’t. If you’re truly acting in good faith, give youtuber Hakim a listen. Or The Deprogram podcast. Or Second Thought. They have various videos covering a multitude of starter* topics and they provide sources with their claims.
Edit: if you’re looking for insights on how the CIA does spin history 180 degrees (360 is a circle, btw, you’d end up at the same point) then give The Jakarta Method a read.
I’d get it if you came in like: buh whaddaboud diss?
But nah, you accused us of worshipping these men and compared us to neonazis (btw the USSR ended the fucking holocaust and made antisemitism punishable by death).
Do some self-reflection. You do not know what you are talking about in the slightest, and we do.
Tell me sincerely, because I want to get into the mind of someone like you, do you really believe that wikipedia is a trustworthy source on literally anything? Like deep down, when you go fetch a wikipedia link, do you really think “yeah I’ll just link wikipedia then I won’t have to make a point myself”?
Even Western sources admit that the CIA and FBI meddles in it. Can’t imagine why they miiight want to smear the USSR and Stalin right? The agencies that created the Banana Republics in Latin America, used Agent Orange on Vietnamese villagers, suppressed any sort of socialist thought and imprisoned US socialists during the Red Scare despite accusing the USSR of suppressing thought in the exact same way and violating the 1st amendment of their own constitution, and gave us MK Ultra and other horribly unethical experiments done on unknowing and nonconsenting test subjects?
all of these sources come from western analysts during the cold war, all of whom belonged to western think tanks designed to propagate misinformation against communism.
Your sources are inflated by people long dead and their relatives pump this same shit for you to consume. Gulags existed, so does labor camps in america, america also regularly massacred students and workers. And caused a silent famine to happen in the midwest, yet you scream communism to drown out any forms of alternative information you feel uncomfortable about.
Most of the authors i’ve seen being quoted in this thread review the numbers and offer a lighter count but they do not refute the existence of Stalin purges and gulags
Hey what did lenin do? He was a clean man and did nothing absolutely wrong. What did your founding father do? Genocide, colonialism, stealing lands from Mexico… Oh slavery, tons of slavery…
Franz Mehring wrote thick biography of Marx, he was direct witness of many events and knew even more participants. I must read it someday when i will have some time.
Your assumption that the person you are talking to isn’t familiar with it gives away that you are full of bullshit. Pick up a bunch of history books irl and read them from start to finish. Stop learning from memes and reddit posts.
Ok. I mean, I’m not going to do it IRL, since I have them on my tablet, but I’ll go read Blackshirts and Reds, Triumph of Evil, the Book of the Hopi, The Cold War and Its Origins, The Hidden History of the Korean War. I’ll also recommend you read them.
Read them all and draw your own conclusions on whether Stalin was a brutal dictator or someone to worship. I suggest you to read on paper or eink display to not strain your eyes.
https://dessalines.github.io/essays/socialism_faq.html#did-the-soviet-union-repress-and-kill-millions-of-people
Again, why don’t you address nothing that’s been presented here, if you are so sure on your points, you can certainly present a competent argument about why those sources are not to be believed or why the other sources are better, let’s debate history, sources, methodology instead of just calling people dictators and posting wikipedia links, again make an argument for the sources that constitute the wikipedia articles you are mentioning, let’s move the discussion forward, I’m not against the debate, but let’s have one, you are asking everyone to read stuff, but what about you read some of our stuff as well, and let’s have a civil discussion about stuff.
Yes he was:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag
These Lenin/Stalin worship posts are shameful. You are being as big of a fool as neonazis. Instead of wasting time with memes learn history and stop worship idiots.
Gulags were prisons. And they were, in many ways, more humane and rehabilitation-focused than any Western prisons. This is scratching the surface of the issue.
The real issue is you not bothering to fathom that the capitalists will fight tooth and nail, including psychologically, to stop the rise of the singular ideology that threatens their millenia of power.
I understand that there is a mountain of propaganda convincing you that Stalin was evil, but literally name one thing supposedly wrong witb LENIN. Nothing, not even the usual CIA and Nazis could be bothered to make up stories about him.
You are operating under the assumption of, “well, all the people around me say these people are evil, so, they must be!”
Kronstadt comes to mind
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kronstadt_rebellion
This appears to be another… Wikipedia link?
Go ahead and post another source. You won’t find a much different account of the story
The Krondstadt wreckers had it coming. It would have been a bad thing if the soviets didn’t massacre them.
…
In case people are still reading this thread, Kronstadt were Whites (not the skin kind, the White army). Some at Kronstadt called themselves anarchists but the group otherwise committed pogroms and was fighting for the White army. Not that OP really cared, all he wanted was to attribute something to Lenin to criticize him for.
Although ALSO the skin kind lol, just coincidence
Kronstadt is a city not a football team.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kronstadt_rebellion
Learn history and stop spreading bullshit
What I have to say is to point you towards the Dessalines git post and ask you to find the issues with his sources or his statements wikipedia is not an unbiased or in depth source, look at the primary sources of your information who they were how they got that information. Like Dessalines looked at it and countered it with good sources now you are pointing back at the target of the Dessalines criticism without even acknowledging the criticism. I have no problems with disagreement, as long as its in good faith but you glossing over and huge documentation of criticism and just repeating your point cause Wikipedia says so does not look like good faith
Here’s one issue: most of these link redirect to a website called reddit.com which blocks me out
If you call out Wikipedia for being biased and link me to reddit instead you should go hide under a rock
Also in an average year of the gulag, about 40 percent of prisoners were released, meaning sentences weren’t long
Can’t you see that you are pretty much doing psyop yourself? There’s no such thing as a good dictator. Stalin isn’t good because they sentenced to dead less political prisoners than the Tsar or Hitler. They are all shit. Do not worship a dictator.
[Genie meme]
You: I wish [“tankies”, or whatever else you want to call us] stopped worshiping dictators.
Genie: Granted
You: Nothing changed.
Genie: Correct.
–
I understand that you can’t understand our comments. I mean, if you did, you’d realise we don’t worship anyone.
But… damn, you can’t even read the image in the post.
the most devout anti-communists can’t read.
There’s a reason every single evil communist dictator has encouraged massive literacy programs.
You need to stop telling us what we believe. We don’t worship anyone.
You can find plenty of communist criticisms of Stalin. They appear on this forum from time to time.
Maybe try engaging earnestly and give specifics. You may get even more context from us that might change your view. Or, hell, we might even agree with you. Stalin did good things. He also did some shit things.
Instead, you’re relying off of the Stalin boogeyman myth that even the US government has admitted is false.
He was never a dictator
Are you saying that he was a dictator?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin
The CIA admitted they invented the hogwash about Stalin being a dictator, and admitted he was merely the “captain of a team.”
The only reason we think of him as a “dictator” here in the West is because anybody that has resisted the West’s demands for total prostration is a “dictator.” If you want examples of REAL dictators you should look to all of the right-wing egotistic maniacs the U.S. government sponsored from centuries past to the present.
There is a difference between a “dictator” who kills fascists, capitalists, monarchists, slavers and saboteurs trying to actively destroy a system that is saving and uplifting hundreds of millions of lives, and an ACTUAL dictator who kills twice that number in women, children, socialists, racial minorities, sexual minorities, religious minorities, while plundering the country and essentially enslaving their own populace.
If you kill a thousand or a million there’s a big difference but you are a murderer regardless. You don’t have to worship any dictator and you don’t have to defend any of them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheka
“learn history” we did, you’re the one who should stop using wikipedia as source for controversial political topics
early '900 and ww2 are well documented even on Wikipedia, unless you are one of these who find the holocaust controversial
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They could have shot Hitler himself but that does not change the fact that they were a brutal dictator on their own who sentenced to death thousand of innocents. Do now worship this guy or try to downplay what he did, this is exactly as bad as neonazi denialism
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Downplay what? Please tell us, with a non-Wikipedia source (is it really that hard to click on the references and cite those?)
NOT
THE
FUCKING
WIKEPEDIA LINKS 😭😭😭
I can’t with y’all anymore
Everybody knows that Wikipedia is literally unrefutable fact, especially on controversial or political topics. Why would someone lie or omit facts on the internet??? Next you’re going to tell me that I can’t trust CIA press releases too!!!
You can’t! Except the ones where they say Stalin was the best.
Usually Wikipedia is okay if, as it says, you use it as ‘a starting point for serious research, not an endpoint.’ The problem is that, in practice, roughly 95% of the people referencing it don’t use it this way and instead mistake it as a substitute for serious research.
It’s basically the Walmart of educational materials.
Everyone knows teachers love it when you use Wikipedia in school, it’s a real problem in some high schools because it’s a trick to get an easy A, if your teacher assigns you a topic for a paper you can just send them the wikipedia link for it and they’ll be forced to give you an A because you don’t actually need to do the work yourself in school
We have no choice but to abandon communism.
Why not?
Wikipedia is notoriously untrustworthy and gets brigades heavily by the CIA, especially on topics like this.
For better sources, use this. Look for gulags and the purges you mention and see what is written.
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“babe wake up! The Dictator of a capitalist, imperialist country said that insert socialist has killed lots of people”
I find this one fascinating. I’m trying to follow this thought process.
“Stalin is an evil Russian Dictator! and these evil tankies worship him! Putin is also an evil Russian Dictator therefore these evil tankies will agree with anything he says because they like Russian Dictators!”
This person honestly seems to think solely in terms of “sports team politics” and doesn’t seem to understand that people can believe or not believe something based on evidence, not on what “their team” says is true.
No but Putin is a known conservative* anticommunist
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bro you cannot be serious…“hmm why would putin and his oligarchic bros spread misinformation about socialism” dont tell me you’re one of those liberals who think russia is still socialist
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Not getting guillotined. Why are libs completely incapable of empathising with people acting in self-serving ways? If the Russian youth are educated on the benefits of a revolution, they’ll want a revolution. If they’re told maintaining the status quo is for everyone’s benefit, they’ll want to keep the status quo where Putin is rich and headed.
You could ask the same question about the CIA or the counter revolutionary forces around the world or the Western press. Why is it that people who are part of the bourgeoisie do their best to discredit socialists efforts? Socialist theorists would say it is to distract the working class from looking beyond capitalism, creating an imaginary enemy in the alternative option that is socialism.
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His disdain for the soviet union, which he regularly discusses.
I am sorry are you believing in putin’s words now? Ok russiabot
All bourgeois leaders and especially those in post-socialist countries have a vested interest in denigrating and slandering the political and economic system of the Soviet Union because that is the best way to prevent a resurgence of enthusiasm for socialism which is a threat to their power and the capitalist system they have built.
Gee, what would capitalist system, existing only because the previous one was brutally and unlawfully destroyed against the will of the peopl, gain on smearing that previous system.
For a culture and civilisation supposedly build on Roman roots westerners awfully rarily seem to ask fundamental question of “qui bono?”.
It’s bullshit no matter who says it - and especially a notorious anti-communist liberal like Putin - because it’s simply not borne out by the evidence.
There’s just as much the CIA can patch, Wikipedia still provide a good account of famous historical events and plenty cross links, you can search for yourself and read the individual history of many who died on gulags or that got send there. Not even the CIA can spin history 360 degrees
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKUltra
If you have even better sources to wikipedia that’s good but your link redirect to reddit and vague articles and even to wikipedia itself
For starters you could read actual socialist theory but I know you won’t. If you’re truly acting in good faith, give youtuber Hakim a listen. Or The Deprogram podcast. Or Second Thought. They have various videos covering a multitude of starter* topics and they provide sources with their claims.
Edit: if you’re looking for insights on how the CIA does spin history 180 degrees (360 is a circle, btw, you’d end up at the same point) then give The Jakarta Method a read.
For starter you could stay on topic
??? I am staying on topic. I’m giving you all these suggestions to check out. Or did you not expect an actual answer?
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Wikipedia links? Really?
I’d get it if you came in like: buh whaddaboud diss?
But nah, you accused us of worshipping these men and compared us to neonazis (btw the USSR ended the fucking holocaust and made antisemitism punishable by death).
Do some self-reflection. You do not know what you are talking about in the slightest, and we do.
Tell me sincerely, because I want to get into the mind of someone like you, do you really believe that wikipedia is a trustworthy source on literally anything? Like deep down, when you go fetch a wikipedia link, do you really think “yeah I’ll just link wikipedia then I won’t have to make a point myself”?
Wikipedia is trustworthy enough for famous historical events, you won’t find write in it that the gulags weren’t real
It is in fact precisely such highly political historical topics that wikipedia is most untrustworthy about.
What makes it trustworthy on historical events?
It agrees with the western narrative on them.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-security-wikipedia-idUSN1642896020070816
Even Western sources admit that the CIA and FBI meddles in it. Can’t imagine why they miiight want to smear the USSR and Stalin right? The agencies that created the Banana Republics in Latin America, used Agent Orange on Vietnamese villagers, suppressed any sort of socialist thought and imprisoned US socialists during the Red Scare despite accusing the USSR of suppressing thought in the exact same way and violating the 1st amendment of their own constitution, and gave us MK Ultra and other horribly unethical experiments done on unknowing and nonconsenting test subjects?
how come u get to cite the cia calling him not a dictator
but we dont get to cite wikipedia which the cia edits calling him 1
huh
its not fair
all of these sources come from western analysts during the cold war, all of whom belonged to western think tanks designed to propagate misinformation against communism.
Your sources are inflated by people long dead and their relatives pump this same shit for you to consume. Gulags existed, so does labor camps in america, america also regularly massacred students and workers. And caused a silent famine to happen in the midwest, yet you scream communism to drown out any forms of alternative information you feel uncomfortable about.
https://dessalines.github.io/essays/socialism_faq.html#did-the-soviet-union-repress-and-kill-millions-of-people
Consolidated sources refuting this.
Your “consolitaded” sources links to reddit…
Most of the authors i’ve seen being quoted in this thread review the numbers and offer a lighter count but they do not refute the existence of Stalin purges and gulags
Hey what did lenin do? He was a clean man and did nothing absolutely wrong. What did your founding father do? Genocide, colonialism, stealing lands from Mexico… Oh slavery, tons of slavery…
Obviously he forged Stalin’s spoon, which was directly responsible for the murder of 10,000,000,000 Ukrainians
He died as he placed his own life force within the Big Spoon, an act that doomed all of Ukraine /s
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror
Good advice.
Why read Marx when you have Wikipedia you know
You may want to read the biography of Marx and the historical events of the 19th century. Wikipedia offers a good recap and data for further reading.
You could read actual works by Marx but it would require being able to read pages longer than a Wikipedia article.
Franz Mehring wrote thick biography of Marx, he was direct witness of many events and knew even more participants. I must read it someday when i will have some time.
Your assumption that the person you are talking to isn’t familiar with it gives away that you are full of bullshit. Pick up a bunch of history books irl and read them from start to finish. Stop learning from memes and reddit posts.
The person I’m talking to links Wikipedia articles and tells me to read ‘history books’ lmao. Of course I’m not taking it seriously.
And who do you take seriously? People telling you exactly what you want to hear?
You seem familiar with Marx so cross check yourself the data with Wikipedia
Ah yes, cuz Wikipedia is the holy grail of information. No, don’t read stuff by yourself, don’t pick up a book, just use wikipedia.
Damn, you’re proving why we have this emoji
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Debunked claims such as Stalin being a dictator?
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Yes debunked claims such as Stalin being a dictator, which all historical evidence shows that he wasn’t.
Ok. I mean, I’m not going to do it IRL, since I have them on my tablet, but I’ll go read Blackshirts and Reds, Triumph of Evil, the Book of the Hopi, The Cold War and Its Origins, The Hidden History of the Korean War. I’ll also recommend you read them.
Edit: How could I forget Killing Hope?!
Whichever the media, you get and understand its contents.
Grover Furr, Khrushchev Lied and Dominico Losurdo’s book on Stalin are also quite good.
Read them all and draw your own conclusions on whether Stalin was a brutal dictator or someone to worship. I suggest you to read on paper or eink display to not strain your eyes.
Stalin was neither a brutal dictator nor someone to worship.
What if we went straight to the further reading?
Oh hey, you’re in this meme! Smile for the cameras
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😂😂
Don’t bother, half of them are trolls, the other half is idiots.