I think gamers as a whole, though specifically those in niche communities, need to take a long and hard look at themselves. We should celebrate the volunteers that create wonderful content for us, generally with no financial gain. Instead, commonly, there are communities that criticize and tear down every little thing they can think of. They even went as far as to doxx the poor woman. We need to be better, and we need to hold these kind of toxic trolls accountable. Especially those of us who are men, we have a responsibility to call out other men who mistreat women in the gaming industry, or gaming in general.
*Edit: I apologize if I insinuated that all gamers are guilty of this kind of behavior, that was not my intention at all. My sentiment is that many of us do not think about this kind of thing, and less are willing to speak out against their friends. We need to be better about that as a whole. I appreciate you as a person if you are already of this mindset.
This isn’t even about gaming, necessarily.
Girls who code are rare. There are probably more AFAB coders at my work than those who identify as female. And a hell of a lot more men.
And I’m in a progressive city in a progressive state.
I work in IT, and I think there is one woman out of 50 employees on my corner of the org chart, and that’s the CIO’s admin assistant.
I’m certain it’s culture, and it doesn’t just go for programming, it goes for almost all of STEM. There was a recent “Stuff You Should Know” episode about toy chemistry sets, and they made it a point to talk about the marketing, and how it always was with boys, for boys. My son, 8 year old kid, says “that’s just wrong! Girls can do all that stuff!”. He’s got it figured out.
There are probably more AFAB coders at my work than those who identify as female.
Did you get this backwards?
No…but I am being hyperbolic. I definitely interface with more transmasc and nonbinary coders than I do with cisgender female coders. This may also be because, again, cultural reasons.
There certainly are more cisgender female coders, but they are still a minority group by a big amount, and they tend to not draw much attention to themselves.
I was asking because the usual stereotype is than many younger programmers are transfemme.
Which does not reflect my experience in the working world at all.
After reading the article, I’m not entirely on her side, most people don’t want to be cucked in a videogame since it probably brings up bad memories. The mod didn’t release like that, she kept going in that direction and people voiced their disdain.
I don’t want you to feel like you’re getting it from all sides but…
I apologize if I insinuated that all gamers are guilty of this kind of behavior, that was not my intention at all
You really gotta ignore those “not all gamers” type of posters. They are literally adding nothing to the conversation. If you are a normal person who doesn’t harass women only, then you should also be a normal person who doesn’t take offense when the community as a whole is criticized.
I always hate these kinds of responses. Let me just go to the extreme, would you say the same if someone made broad negative generalizations about a race?
Sad you’re being down voted for this. Generalizing a whole group like this is not OK and your point about race is completely valid. People saying things like “ah yes, gamer race” either can’t read or comprehend.
This is literally the same argument being made by “thin blue line” apologists.
You can choose to work as a cop, you can’t really choose what you like to do as a pastime.
what do you mean lol were you born with a controller attached to your hands?
Lol you tried
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I’ve had this conversation before. I knew going into it people would disagree, but I don’t only voice my opinion when others will agree.
To be fair, I assumed people would understand I don’t mean gamers as a whole are like this. I think we all have a responsibility, but I also think the majority of gamers (at least in my age group) are reasonable and show respect.
I see where you’re going with negative generalizations on race, but it’s a completely different ball field. I could probably think of many reasons why, but my main argument is that the general group of “gamers” have never had to face any real existential adversity. No one ever put us in chains, stole our children, etc. on the basis that we play games.
“Gamers” are also a group one elects to be a member of, while one is categorized into a race, sex or gender from birth. One is elective, the other is descriptive. No one chooses to be black, or white, or born with male or female genitalia, etc, etc. And a lot of negative views are often along the lines of a rare bad thing being more likely performed by a certain demographic being extrapolated to accuse that demographic of being dangerous or harmful in general (usually an out-group, though under some ideologies it’s only acceptable to have this view with a target perceived to be the in-group - as regards blame they essentially reverse the perceived in- and out-group roles).
To turn it around on you though, imagine we picked some other elective group (a hobby, a political or ideological leaning, that sort of thing) that you are likely to look positively upon (and maybe even be a member of) and did the same kind of thing. Let’s say…feminists? Would it be acceptable to accuse feminism or feminists of anything negative I can point to any group thereof doing, and if you aren’t one of the ones who actually does that then you should not take offense, right? Not feel defensive at all, not question or challenge the assertion at all, right?
That’s why I said extreme. ;P
I actually had no problem with your initial post. My issue comes with the “if you have to say no all [thing] you’re part of the problem” or similar comments, like the one I responded to.
I have similar feelings about generalizations towards men, women, seniors, children, etc. though you normally only hear it about certain demographics.
It’s usually boils down to either “you know you’re not the problem so why do you dislike being bombarded with posts about you being bad” or “this persons feelings/groups feelings shouldn’t be invalidated, so we are going to invalidate yours instead.”
And again, to be clear, your post wasn’t the problem. You were very clear in what you meant, and followed up with clarification. My issue is that someone came in after the fact and decided to say “fuck those people.”
If you’re a woman keep your drinks covered around men. Responding not all men is pointless even tho I’m a man and I don’t think women should be afraid of me but I get it that they could be and the person that could help change this the most is me and men not women.
And again this is a pointless tangent to the original statement.
As a man who grew up listening their ever perpetually single mom constantly complain about how all men are shit, this comment is the the influence I need to see more of coming from more people who are also men.
I’m constantly trying to be better all the time. I just feel like I don’t know how not to get offended by generalizations that I know don’t apply to me but the more I see other guys say stuff like what you just said, it kinda helps because just seeing them say it makes me want to adopt that mentality and get out if the one that if I fall under a group that receives criticism my feelings are hurt.
You gotta have some more self awareness, man. Stop trying to please those who are always complaining, and just be a good person for the sake of being a good person. Don’t do things to gain favor in the eyes of others.
And if you’re not part of the problem (i.e. you’re not a total piece of shit), then those complaints don’t apply to you anyway. If someone comes up to you and starts blaming you for societal problems simply because you’re a man… that’s someone you don’t wanna be involved with anyway.
I’ve lived by that first paragraph my whole life, I just meant how hard it is to not feel like someone is blaming me personally, or including me when they say a thing about men, just because I’m a man too. And btw, I’ve been not involved with that toxic parent since I was 26 (I’m 32 now)
Like idk how to not to let my feelings be hurt that women would rather encounter a bear than me when I’m trying to be the change I want to see in the world.
I talked to my girlfriejd about it and she said “yeah well you’re not one of those men in the scenario, you have no reason to be offended, you’re one of the good ones” and logically I know shes right, and I appreciated hearing that.
I just gotta see how other men keep from getting offended so easily so I can learn from them
I’m 36 and I’m not hurt by it at all. I completely understand why so many women would choose the bear. I also have three daughters (including a teenager), so I guess that helped to put things into perspective for me, but still… There are, unfortunately, a lot of men who have sexually assaulted women, and because men are the “default” in a lot of authority positions, it’s easy for men like that to assume that everyone wants what they want, including sexual advances; no matter how minimal.
Like I said - if you’re not the kind of man that does this kind of thing, great, but you gotta let it roll off your back. The complaints are legitimate, and I’ll bet your gf has experienced it herself. My wife has, and even my ex-wife has as well.
I’ll give you a tip: Instead of asking “how do I not feel offended”, ask yourself (and you could ask your gf as well) “how can I help to make the situation better?” It’s absolutely an uncomfortable situation, and acknowledging it goes a long way.
Man, thank you, and I appreciate you for taking the time to type all that out. I agree with everything i just read.
Since you mentioned it, you’re right my gf is unfortunately a victim of rape.
I’m gonna remember your tip and use it always.
If you are not part of the problem - it should not offend you, so that generalization is ok, because tbh a lot of us need to stop and think.
Welcome to the world of making software for random people, almost certainly made worse by she being a woman.
As others pointed out, most people do appreciate it, but they tend to be silent about it, whilst a small minority are demanding little whinny bitches (in a non-gendered way) who think they’re owed service and some are even trolls.
To those reading this, I suggest when you get something you like for free you at least give some feedback that you liked it and, if the person has some kind of sponsoring scheme going on and you really like it, consider contributing, if only to incentivise more of the same.
Those on the other side are people too and they will appreciate it.
The only interaction I’ve ever had with authors of mods and such was sending them thanks for their hard work. Sad.
A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it.
“I poured many years of my life into this, just to feel empty. In quitting, I have found my real passion, and have been obsessively working on music. I’ve even released my first ever album, SPIDERWEB PRINCESS, which is filled with my darkest, most genuine feelings from all of my experiences. Nothing I’ve ever done has ever been so meaningful to me. I have so much of myself to share with the world, and I’d much rather be remembered for something I actually enjoy.”
Apparently her new passion is music. SPIDERWEB PRINCESS
This is the sexism that we saw come out during the election. We thought the country was getting better but they were just quietly simmering but connecting online.
I said that with an American slanted focus but sadly it’s worldwide too.
This is where my brain went, too. Even looking at this Lemmy thread. 6 of the 10 most upvoted top level comments (including THE most upvoted) are “not meee”, “not alllll men”, defensive crap or “well she should have just…” and “even men have to deal with it toooo” like damn. We ARE fucked.
It’s almost like people ignore men’s issues and scapegoat them at every opportunity for the sake of women.
If men had said they picked the bear it would have been framed as misogyny.
Case in point. Some dude just got murdered by the cops cuz the home invader was a woman and the cops saw a man fighting a woman and shot the man by default.
Men will never ever get the benefit of the doubt, but when we try to demand it we are just crybabies.
It’s almost like people ignore men’s issues and scapegoat them at every opportunity for the sake of women.
Men will never ever get the benefit of the doubt, but when we try to demand it we are just crybabies.
Welcome to society. Frankly, it’s malagency (mis-assignment of agency, specifically in a fashion that often makes men responsible for things that happen to them even when they really aren’t and often absolves women of that responsibility when they really should have it) all the way down.
Malagency as a lens predicts reality better than a lot of other gender focused lenses. “What would happen if women are believed to be less responsible for what happens than they really are and men are believed to be more responsible for what happens than they really are?” tends to map to reality better than “What would happen if everything in society were created by men to benefit men at the expense of women and to oppress women?” Especially once you stop looking narrowly at the top few percent of men, where the two lenses give similar results.
and the cops saw a man fighting a woman and shot the man by default.
Something like 95% of people shot by police are men. This of course is not discriminatory on the grounds that men are evil, violent savages unlike every other group that are disproportionately shot by police who are innocent victims of oppression.
now before anyone gets misled by some of the reddit threads gamesradar linked to, some quotes from the relevant reddit thread:
I worked extensively on most of her mods. In the period immediately following the Daegon 2.0 controversy, I tracked down several recurring trolls (people here might remember them as cycling through Reddit usernames like “SeranasStankPussy” and other such things) as originating from literal Kiwifarms.
She made a female follower mod called Daegon. It was a suggestive follower with sexy voice and looks, and “bratty princess” personality.
There was an idea about developing romance option for the follower. The fans were so excited about it. However she ended up adding a bodyguard character as Daegon’s romantic partner instead of opening the options to player. Daegon also had a major backstory rewrite, which was deemed as straying too far from TES lore. Fans felt betrayed. The backlash was so fervently hostile that anything the author posted always received downvotes and she was demeaned/harassed for posting anything (something like “you dare to show your face here?”), even when it’s not related to Daegon.
At the time, she removed the old version and people leaked her discord server chat, which was very hostile and demeaning to the people complaining.
Basically: the mod author developed and people on her discord developed a para-social relationship and it went as expected. You can search this sub for that whole thing
There’s more details on her discord (as usual):
my photos get passed around on skyrim servers, im called a slut and whore, and for what?
gamesradar linked to a few of the threads that got overwhelmed with trolls, who amplified how she blocked users (some of which inappropriately) from her mod pages and claimed she encouraged her fans to doxx people based on a single out-of-context screenshot of a random discord fan.
I had once respectfully provided feedback to that mod author because their female companion character (Daegon) was the worst kind of Mary Sue and complained nonstop. Author banned me from all their forums because they couldn’t accept valid criticism.
Sounds like the exact kind of entitled, whiny man babies i was expecting.
Christ, humanity at its best.
This is a both sides suck here for me.
I read a few of the reddit threads and there were legitimate criticisms that the follower started out cringey and edgy but a lore-friendly bratty elf and then after some big update the follower was turned into an over-the-top melodramatic edgy super evil non-lore-friendly entity (vampire demon dragon princess from another reality that is more powerful than any of the gods of TES) who now had a boyfriend equally evil with many voice lines about how much the two of them were horny for each other, and like to burn down inns full of people for fun.
There were some cringey guys upset they were being cucked, too many gamers in general are obsessed about the possibility of being cucked by some pixels and are ridiculously fragile about it.
But the mod author lashed out at both the trolls and people caught in the crossfire, the community became more upset, just an angry cycle. People asked about being able to download the old version before the changes since the mod author hid the older version - Nexus doesn’t allow mod authors to delete their work anymore so people’s mod lists don’t break but they for some stupid reason allow mod authors to hide older versions from users which can only be accessed by having the right link and it is a pain to get. Eventually the mod author releases the older version again as its own mod. But at this point the community hates them because of an image showing someome on the mod author’s discord talking about doxxing anyone who upset the mod author which the author offered gleeful support of.
There was a guy in the thread (ZootAllures9111) who said he helped develop and code the mod (you quoted him in your comment) and he said that practically all criticisms were trolls from kiwifarms, and that the person who wanted to doxx others on the discord was just being silly and edgy and only disingenuous people would take their silly edginess at face value. Also that they won’t play “this game with you” when asked how the mod author responded to this person wanting to doxx people because (CW:transphobia) the only image you need to look at is some random troll on a website called kiwifarms complaining about being a third wheel to two horny NPCs in the mod and something about being a cuck and that other followers don’t need sex to sell basically. Then when someone in the reddit thread asks why they keep posting and deleting their same comment with someone else chiming in confirming they also noticed this, the guy offers a reasonable explanation about network issues and then says, “I remember you from the comment sections of our mods now by the way, you are exactly as disingenous as I thought yesterday and you’re not gonna get anywhere pretending otherwise.” Which the innocent guy replies, “You should maybe take a break because you’re getting paranoid now. I’ve never used your mod, have no intention to, and the first time I’ve heard of all this drama was when this thread came up.”
Why mention this? Because I think it is shitty to “joke” about doxxing people and defend this “joking” and call everyone speaking out a troll from kiwifarm and I can see why the community doesn’t like the direction the author took and how annoying it is to not be able to go back to an older version of the mod. And I’ve read the threads, they were not overwhelmed with trolls unless you think people who criticize a mod author are always trolls. But I also think it is shitty and unacceptable how much harassment the author got. They are not the first author to get harassed off of Skyrim modding, even Vilja’s author was chased off for IMO stupid reasons. The Skyrim modding community is full of assholes, both mod authors and users alike. It used to be routine how many mod authors would lose their shit and delete their mods.
i get that there’s valid criticism, but the amount of bad was incongruent with the amount of vitriol in that era that were so demanding
the mod author lashed out at both the trolls and people caught in the crossfire
where tho
it is shitty to “joke” about doxxing people
definitely, but none of us have seen the context. i’ve been having trouble finding the discord server, and it’d be great if you could find it and the context
they were not overwhelmed with trolls
that’s how they read, especially when you compare their comments to the reddit post i linked. not even the sympathy for a person who leaves explains the difference to me
I typed a long ass comment on my phone and summit crashed not saving any of it, fucking hell. Anyway I have to refind all the comments again.
Here is where:
u/WoodenRocketShip
People absolutely dragged the mod and the mod author when the update with her boyfriend came out. Normally if people got that mad over something that happens in a mod you’d get pushback from others saying that it’s just not for you and it’s not your place to judge, but the mod author was also silencing critics and absolutely going off with her army of followers, so yeah no pushback everyone was on the same page. For a couple of weeks she and her mod were the big bads of this subreddit.
u/Live_Hippo_5885
That’s a bit wild silencing your critics changing her race and backstory is a bit drastic but it’s their mod I suppose, I don’t really care that she has a boyfriend I like having a bro to adventure with dude’s just kind of a dick imo.
u/WoodenRocketShip
Yeah see if it was just that, then I’d just chalk it up as a mod that I’m uninstalling and never thinking about it again as I barely liked Daegon before. If the mod author didn’t go around silencing criticism in the mod’s comments, some of which wasn’t even criticism and was from genuine fans curious about certain things, then I don’t think many people would have said anything.
People on this thread claimed they were banned for not liking the mod, asking questions about the mod, etc. before the comments section was removed altogether.
The context of the discord image joking about doxxing given by the Zoot guy defending the mod author is that it was a random discord user who they did not know who was known for being overdramatic and later on they think someone else told the user to cool it. Doxxing is serious to me so I do not think this context absolves the image, it feels worse since the mod author doesn’t even know the person and just gleefully agrees with them to the point another rando has to tell them to stop. I think the mod author is immature and the random user probably a teenager. It’s the only thing that makes sense why they would joke like that. I’m not digging for the discord, I’ve not only already wasted enough time with this comment since summit crashed on me but also find it a waste of time.
The thread talking about the mod author leaving was very sympathetic. My original comment had the top 9 or 10 comments and a few replies from the thread to prove to you that it was not overwhelmed by trolls. But there is no way I’m doing that again. Just read it yourself. If you still think they are not sympathetic enough then something is seriously wrong with your interpretation.
I actually read the part about banning too many people, though I wouldn’t characterize it as “lashing out”. I’m pretty sure I included a quote about it but I didn’t. Weird.
I wasn’t saying they weren’t sympathetic enough, I’m saying that the amount of criticizing here is way too little compared to the two threads linked in the article to shrug off as caused by sympathy.
People are asses sometimes, but whenever these conversations come up, I wonder: What do you even want from us? How are random people on the internet supposed to hold random anonymous trolls on the internet “accountable?” You can call them asses, but so? What if they don’t care? They’re anonymous. You could get mods to ban them, but if it’s a free service they can always make another anonymous account. It’s even more confusing in the context of something like an online game as opposed to a forum. What are you supposed to do about someone being an ass when you’ve probably never seen them before and probably won’t see them again?
I mean, call them asses. Maybe they don’t care, maybe they do, but we keep the problem relevant by being vocal against this kind of thing. To not do anything at all is to encourage trolls.
The phrase is “don’t feed the trolls”, not the contrary.
Thousands of hours, months of hard work. For about 300 bucks and a bunch of incels doxxing and harassing her.
I cannot fathom why she left.
I don’t understand people who “demand” things from volunteers. Open source devs, modders, and still recently content creators are/were treated like public service workers, by some.
Imagine if we went around treating artists as if they were obligated to please each of us individually with their every piece? I’m very happy to see this attitude improve with streaming and youtube, where creators are more and more met with care and support when they have to step away for a bit or retire entirely.
It sadly seems like this modder was eventually putting in tremendous effort, in a vain attempt to please absolutely everyone using her mods. But that isn’t a good reason to work for free.
Any work I do for free, is something I do because I want to, but this modder explicitly says she did work she didn’t want to do in order to please fans. And I can’t help but ask, why? (I know why, but someone should have cared enough to show her she is allowed to just say no, and do whatever she prefers.)
The blurb about her doing music is how you’re SUPPOSED to feel doing something for fun. I’m happy that she found her way to something that makes her feel that way.
People do this with artists too. Especially the moment you offer anything in the way of free commissions for a specific community and such.
Many forums had gfx threads, where members who enjoy putting together banners and such would offer to make something for those who asked. A good friend of mine ran one in a certain game’s forum for a while and the absolute entitlement in which some of those people acted (in regards to speed and nitpicking about minor things) was disgusting. It was maybe 1 in 25 people but it soured the whole thing for her, understandably so. The moment you give people a little finger wrt their requests, one of those people will take the whole hand. The same likely applies to modding.
And I’m sure being a woman doing gaming stuff isn’t helping because there’s way too much sexism in gaming culture, even though there are also a lot of subcommunities that are super welcoming to everyone.
The moment you give people a little finger wrt their requests, one of those people will take the whole hand. The same likely applies to modding.
I suppose that depends on which finger.
“gamers as a whole”
leave me out of this i didnt do anything.
The sentiment is that we all have a responsibility to hold our community accountable for this type of behavior.
You can disagree, it is likely a matter of philosophy. I feel a responsibility to try to put more positive influence to the world, and to call out harmful actions. Not everyone does, that is fine too, albeit a little sad.
“Our community” feels a bit monolithic. It’s like saying “film watchers” or “readers”. Lumping anyone that plays video games regularly into a single social group feels unhelpfully reductive.
The problem is as prevalent and pervasive as the gaming community as a whole, which is most definitely monolithic.
