- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
Sexual harassment, sexual assault and rape have been referred to as surgery’s open secret.
There is an untold story of women being fondled inside their scrubs, of male surgeons wiping their brow on their breasts and men rubbing erections against female staff. Some have been offered career opportunities for sex.
The analysis - by the University of Exeter, the University of Surrey and the Working Party on Sexual Misconduct in Surgery - has been shared exclusively with BBC News.
Nearly two-thirds of women surgeons that responded to the researchers said they had been the target of sexual harassment and a third had been sexually assaulted by colleagues in the past five years.
Women say they fear reporting incidents will damage their careers and they lack confidence the NHS will take action.
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Um, what the fuck? Can people just not be terrible for a little while, please?
Seems like hollywood. Dangling career opportunities as a reward for constenting to unwanted advances etc.
Seems like every situation where there is a power differential.
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People are egoistic by nature, so there.
People are also compassionate by nature. But society, upbringing, etc. can comprimise that.
Hey, i didn’t say we have no virtues. It’s only our (as a species) biggest fault.
Well… no. In fact, Is argue most people are not egoistic by nature.
But maybe many can be conditioned to become egoistic. Human nature is that we have no one nature. We’re very malleable. Power corrupts and all that.
In this instance it’s men who are terrible.
Maybe male medical school graduates need an extra 1 year course on why it’s not “a thing” to sexually assault co-workers.
Men are people too, so “can people not be terrible” is still accurate…
Yes, but essentially saying “not all men” serves no other purpose than to enable men to continue to ignore and exclude themselves from the problem, making them actively a part of the problem.
Edit: I find it absolutely hysterical that you assholes can’t help yourselves but pipe up and continue to expose yourselves to be exactly the kind of men we are talking about (when all it takes it to literally just… not. You realise you do have the ability to just shut the fuck up, right?). Enjoy whining in to the void, I’ve already wasted too much time on you clowns.
You also have the ability to shut the fuck up. Seems like most people here would like very much for you to exercise that right immediately.
Would you do the same for different races or religions?
“Yes, but essentially saying “not all muslims” allows muslims to continue to ignore and exclude themselves from the problem, making them actively a part of the problem.”Of course not, those aren’t on the list of approved groups to generalise.
Lmfao at you thinking you “got me”… 🤣🤣
If the discussion was about a situation where a power imbalance clearly and obviously benefitted Muslims, then yes (except there isn’t a global problem with the power imbalance favouring Muslims on anywhere the same scale as there is for men).
It really isn’t difficult once you take your head out of your ass.
Or you can continue to make up as many strawmen and false equivalencies as you like to try and derail the conversation, but all that achieves is you showing your ass as being part of the problem, knowingly now, because you’ve been provided with information that should make you rethink your bad take, not double down on it.
Strawmen don’t exist, this user is asking you about situations that do exist, such as the example about the muslims, which is absolutely a real thing that you absolutely would get flack for saying in real life. So no, to ask you a why it’s magically ok for you to say it about men when it’s not ok to say about literally any other group, makes it by definition the very opposite of a strawman. Don’t use words if you don’t understand what they mean.
This also demonstrates that your point about power is wrong. If hate speech is only allowed about one single group, it suggests the opposite of: that group holds all the power.
I suppose not all women are as rude as you. Does that ignore and exclude you from the problem?
What are you going on about?
Nobody in this thread has said “not all men”.
The top comment said “can people just not suck”, then OP responded saying “actually, in this case, only men suck”.
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Except you did, insisting on saying “people are terrible” as an answer to “men are terrible” is not only pretending people of other genders are part of the problem when they’re not but is
essentially saying “not all men”
Not that any of this will stop you from continuing to try to derail the conversation instead of just accepting that this is a problem with men, no matter how uncomfortable that is for you to deal with.
But they didn’t say that? They said ‘men are terrible’ is included in the phrase ‘people are terrible’ because men are people.
Except they did, insisting on saying “people are terrible” instead of “men are terrible” is not only pretending people of other genders are part of the problem when they’re not but is
essentially saying “not all men”
Not that any of this will stop you from continuing to try to derail the conversation instead of just accepting that this is a problem with men, no matter how uncomfortable that is for you to deal with.
Yes, in this case men are absolutely to blame, I am not denying this.
I believe they intended their comment as a general statement not specific to sexual harassment/assault. It felt like a fatalist response, not as an attempt to derail the conversation.
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You came in here picking a fight but everyone else is an asshole. Ok there.
If it’s not them who caused the problem, why can’t they be excluded from the problem? Are you to blame for any other women’s problems?
I don’t think that would do anything. The problem isn’t that they don’t know it’s wrong, it’s that they know they won’t face any consequences for their actions.
You might need an extra 1 year course on why it’s not “a thing” to be lacking common sense
Leave the mindless man-bashing on reddit. Sexism should not be any more welcome welcome on Lemmy than it is in an operating room.
I heard that among surgeons there are a lot who have a personality disorder like narcissism or they are straight up sociopaths. Because of the prestige and power that comes with the job. Some feel like they are some sort of god because they have so much control over someone’s life when a patient lies on the table.
Not a surprise to me that this shit happens in the hospital.
The training pretty much filters neurotypicals. Most well-adjusted people won’t sacrifice their entire life for a career and don’t suffer from a savior complex that compels them to save lives. I’m certainly not advocating that surgery is unnecessary or that surgeons are bad people by default, but it takes a fair level of narcissism to put yourself in that position IMO
That, or the opposite. The only kind of good person I can see doing surgery is someone who is otherwise well-adjusted but has experienced a tragedy in childhood that led to a guilt complex.
I hate to say it but it’s horrible with psychiatry too. There are too many people who take jobs they don’t want in psychiatry here because it pays well but the government health care system assigns your posting. Calling Dr. Richard McGee of Castlegar, BC, you’re a fucking bastard who has ruined lives and broken the hypocratic oath! Oh, and don’t even get me started on Ponokah, Alberta’s Centennial Hospital’s Psyche Ward, that place is guilty of unlawful confinent.
I think there’s also something to the idea that it takes someone who is a little…“off” for them to be able to cut other people open for their job. You have to be able to dehumanize them to a certain extent.
I worked in a hospital for a few years, and the folks working in the ORs were definitely the most interesting and often most intimidating crowd, and you did NOT fuck with the surgeons, they were the kings and queens of the floor.
Even if you had like no morals at all, that type of behavior has to disqualify someone from being a surgeon. They’re sabotaging the work they’re supposed to be doing.
“Dear neurosurgeon man, I know you have like 15 years of college and 20 years of experience and you are the only qualified neurosurgeon in 100 mile radius but remember that one time you rubbed your dick on that intern? Yeah, your going to need to let the next 15 patients die and we are going to need to let you go. I know it downgrades us from a level one trauma center, hundreds of people might die, and we will lose MILLIONS of dollars by letting you go, but it’s the right thing to do” - Said no chief of surgery ever.
They just pay the lawsuits and move on. It’s shitty, and it’s why surgeons are giant dicks. They don’t have to treat conscious patients and they get away with anything because they are nearly irreplaceable.
They’re getting in the way of their own replacements, creating a hostile environment preventing people from working and gaining experience.
Everything you said is true, and it fucking sucks.
To be fair, I’d rather have surgeons be above the law than rich people.
At least they’re doing something good for society.
Wait, so Scrubs was right about surgeons?
I heard scrubs is right about a lot of things.
Am nurse. Can confirm. Scrubs is right about a LOT of things
How many Jello puddings have you stolen?
How dare you! I would NEVER!!
(Unwanted cookies on the other hand, fair game ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)
You have my attention, because I have always thought gelatin and pudding were separate and distinct cups.
They are, but both are made by the Jell-O brand.
Help me steal this, or we check the back of your trunk?
-Janitor
My ER doc husband says it’s probably the most accurate medical show
How’s his opinion of janitors?
It’s just weird for a sitcom, but I guess it also had plenty of serious moments.
Most jokes are based in truth. Except absurdist humor.
Sure, I just didn’t expect ‘The Todd’ to be systemic.
what kind of sad pathetic waste of life do you have to be to GET HORNY WHILE SOMEONE ELSE IS CUTTING SOMEONE UP AND SEXUALLY ASSAULT SAID SKILLED SURGEON
Have you met/partied with medical students who are doing their residencies? I have, and my opinion of doctors has radically changed since then.
University living rolls on and on.
Pretty much, I saw something similar with PhD students. It’s like they are infantilized adults from being in school for so long.
Oh dear. Elaborate?
28 year olds acting like 18 year olds.
Even worse, to unleash an untrained surgeon out to the world in exchange for sex.
Maybe they are turned on by how smart and skilled the surgeon is? Lol
men rubbing erections against female staff
Imagine getting aroused while working, doing surgery, surrounded by other people. I would think any one of those three would preclude the possibility.
I would guess it is how they respond to a highly stressful environment. But that would only excuse the arousal, not the sexual assault.
Meh, I’ve gotten erections in the weirdest circumstances, it’s not necessarily happening because of the situation, but in spite of it. Still would’ve never thought to rub it on someone, lol
Sometimes it seems like my dick just has it’s own section of my brain that’s just unaffected by everything else that may be happening…
That doesn’t mean I act on it or SA people though.
Imagine doing this to someone with both the scalpel and the knowledge of how to use it.
Maybe they’re getting an erection cuz they’re falling asleep of boredom
You ever notice how in almost any industry, hobby, geographical area or any other demographic you care to pick, a story about sexual assault will get traction and then people in that demographic will be like “Yeah, sexual assault is kind of an open secret here”? Surgery. Fucking surgery. Someone is trying to give someone a new lease on life, a gift most precious that very few can bestow, and someone else is like “I’ll bet I can get a fistful of tiddy”, and an entire room full of people are like “This is fine and normal. Let’s not do anything about it.”
To be honest I’m not surprised. Have you ever met a surgeon before? Quite a few assholes who think they’re King of the world.
Found a study that looked at the correlation between difference in hierachial status within the workspace and sexual objectification. In short they found that women sexually objectify men regardless of status, men sexually objectified women of a higher status then them much more than women of lower status.
I wonder if this plays in here as well. Since surgery has some of the most arrogant asshats regardless of gender.
Shit like this keeps making me lose trust in men. Having some decent male friends who are married and have kids, counter balances it. Though now, I always assume that any man is perfectly capable of being a predator.
Full stats by the way:
Among women, 63.3% reported being the target of sexual harassment versus 23.7% of men
29.9% of women had been sexually assaulted versus 6.9% of men
10.9% of women experiencing forced physical contact for career opportunities (a form of sexual assault) versus 0.7% of men
Being raped by a colleague was reported by 0.8% of women versus 0.1% of men
Not sure why it keeps being framed as “versus” like it’s some sort of competition and it doesn’t mean both sexes get sexually harassed and that’s not fucking okay for either.
That’s a fundamental misunderstanding of scientific/mathematical language used in statistical studies.
Considering the title of the study is “Sexual harassment, sexual assault and rape by colleagues in the surgical workforce, and how women and men are living different realities: observational study using NHS population-derived weights”, I feel like the stress on the ratio is intentional.
I wonder if you also write this, but with genders reversed, under every report and article about “lonely men” or “men dying by suicide”.
Link me one article about men’s problems with depression that dismisses women’s problems like this one does and I can tell you my opinion.
?? Ok, that’s easy. This one for example: https://www.beyondblue.org.au/who-does-it-affect/men/what-causes-anxiety-and-depression-in-men/men-in-rural-and-remote-areas
Or you can look at basically any post in this community: [email protected]
That’s not even an article. That’s a support page, in a support site, under the “men” section. Obviously they don’t mention women, like in support pages for women they don’t mention men.
And I’m not that great at using Kbin, but it seems to me the most upvoted article on that community is this one. From that article:
Furthermore, the absence of male teachers in early education can perpetuate gender stereotypes and suggest that caregiving is a women’s job.
In order to achieve gender equality, the researchers said, it is necessary to ensure that women have equal opportunities in traditionally male-dominated fields such as STEM while also creating opportunities for men to work in historically feminine/HEED positions.
That seems like pretty supportive for an article that should be on the same level of one that states “male and female surgeons live different realities” in the face of 1/4th of them having reported sexual harassment.
So your actual problem is the title of the article??
Than what about these: https://www.happiness.com/magazine/health-body/male-loneliness-time-bomb-killing-men/
https://hive.rochesterregional.org/mens-health/men-loneliness-friends
Source for stats
Surgical tech, here.
Um… What the fuck? NHS, you need to get your shit together.
I’ve only worked in US military/civilian hospitals, so I can’t speak on the NHS, but in the US at least there’s no ‘open secret’ of sexual assault in surgery. At minimum you’ve got a surgeon, anesthesiologist, nurse, and tech in the room, so if any one of them tries to assault one of the others, it’ll be in plain view of two witnesses.
We’ve definitely got a few relics from another era (old perverts who constantly push boundaries), but even they know better than to try to do something physical. X-rated ‘jokes’ directed where they aren’t welcome is another story, but those aren’t some ‘open secret’ that we just tolerate, either: fucker’s getting told off and written up.
Surgeons especially are notorious for having a short temper and shit social skills, and HR won’t raise a fucking eyebrow over Drs creating a hostile work environment in pretty much any way -other- than sexual. But a sexual harassment/assault complaint? I’ve seen two of those put in (both at a private civ hospital, two different surgeons/incidents) and both times HR intervened that day. Wish I could have been a fly on the wall for those conversations, cuz whatever they threatened did the trick - surgeon was absolutely walking on egg shells from there on.
If there’s any open secret it’s “different spanks for different ranks” - if the accused was a nurse or tech, they’d be fired on the spot, where Drs are given much more leeway / second chances, but that difference is much more narrow when it comes to sexual harassment/assault.
The only way I can think they might get away with that shit is if no one’s reporting them, so if you see it, FUCKING SUBMIT A COMPLAINT TO HR.
Who remembers the show scrubs and the few times we saw episodes around the female surgeons in the show. There was one chick that got under Turk’s skin but she was the better surgeon… kelso took turk to medical conference and the only reason why in the show was cause of the other surgeons gender… then there was the blond boss of Turk who specifically talks about the targeted harassment… this was all early 2000-2010s…
Who else remembers the Todd?
Todd five! 🙏 Alright!
While the report shows men are also subject to some of this behaviour (24% had been sexually harassed), it concludes men and women surgeons are “living different realities”.
What do you mean “living different realities”. It’s the same reality where people cannot stay for themself, no matter who they are. They unhappy with their life and so want to force themself on others? They can force their head in dirt
Article talking about female surgeons and their struggles at work
“Oh by the way one in four male surgeons gets sexually harassed too”
Article keeps talking about women
Like, really what the fuck? Why is that just a small thing in the middle of the article that’s presented as barely relevant? Would it have hurt them to remove “female” from the headline and have the article talk about the whole culture, maybe interviewing a male as well?
Seriously, the double standard is ridiculous. The entire field seems to be corrupt and fucking horrible to work in, but only one side of the coin matters?
“But that’s not an issue because they are living a different reality”
Seriously, those two words are what make me angry about the article mostly, not only the way too small and degrading talk about this happening to the other gender too.
‘tought it out, buttercup’ and other things along the same lines get (got?) pistoned into boys’ minds as soon as they are (were?) able to understand it. would they even know what being on the receiving end of sexual assault is growing up? high school level jokes say that it’s only assault if it comes from a source you do not specifically approve of. been a while since I’ve been in high school but I would imagine no significant change has happened lately? or, at least there was no significant change for the generations mentioned in the article.
point being, it’s unpleasant, but different realities are, it seems, still a thing. maybe this’ll get fixed in a couple more generations?
I wonder how many respondents of the traditional male upbringing were truthful in their answers (after all, admitting you were sexually assaulted is not the ‘manliest’ of traits in said dogma…)
Weird nitpick on the article. I could do the same for your comment
I could do the same for your comment
But will you?
Apparently when I’m coming out of anesthesia I’m a massive perv and will make really inappropriate come ons to the medical staff. I feel even worse about it now that I know they already have to deal with it from their coworkers. I already warn them that it happens so at least they are forwarned right?
I think generally, they understand that you’re not in control of yourself. It’s like being drunk, but you didn’t make the choice to drink in this case.
A bit of an assumption on my part, since I’m not medical staff. And of course it won’t be universal.
Surgical tech, here. ^spot on.
We do, however, appreciate the warning if you know ahead of time that you wake up pervy, angry, violent, terrified etc.
For example, I’m a bigger guy, so if I know you wake up swinging fists, I’m going to make sure I’m near your upper body when you wake up so I can stop you from hurting yourself, one of my coworkers, or myself.
If you’ve got PTSD or something and wake up terrified (we see this with vets a lot - their first thought is that they’ve been captured), then I’m going focus on cleaning up my back table when you wake up so the first thing you see isn’t some big hairy dude; and let whoever on the team is the best at verbal de-escalation take the position by your upper body so they can reassure you as you’re waking up.
And if it’s your first surgery, we’ll adjust as we go.
Like being blackout drunk to the point you’re not even aware you’re awake, while you’re awake
This is a huge fear of mine. I’ve not been anesthetized since I was a kid but I have a filthy mind. I worry what will come out of my mouth if I’m ever in that situation. I wish I could be like “can you just gag me til I sober up”?
Would that be with a piece of cloth, a ball or a dick?
I always get erections while cutting people too
/s
This is basically the story of how a scary number of serial killers became serial killers.
Can a giant meteor just strike the earth already?
I absolutely disagree that humanity needs to be destroyed because a bunch of men can’t stop sexually abusing those around them, but the fact that it seems easier than ever getting them to stop really goes to show how bad the problem really is.
There are so many other reasons though…
I feel like some people simply want that this gets accepted as natural. It has become normalized and many feel triggered by even mentioning this problem.
There’s another way, if we can just entice the jerky surgeons to eat some bovine tuberculosis.
No need. Homo sapiens is near the end anyway. Doesn’t matter how it ends, if we get replaced by AIs, the next "Homo geneticmodified"or get wiped out. Kind of awesome to know, right? After 250,000 years, we’re among one of the last Homo sapiens. Peak Homo sapiens.
You know what that means, “Homo sapiens”? It means “wise man”.
We’re going to get completely ridiculed for doing that in the future. Who the fuck even calls themselves “wise man”. So lame.
Noah get the damn boat…
Get a spaceship at this rate
