For all your boycotting needs. I’m sure there’s some mods caught in lemmy.ml’s top 10 that are perfectly upstanding and reasonable people, my condolences for the cross-fire.
- [email protected] and [email protected]. Or of course communities that rule.
- [email protected]
- [email protected]. Quite small, plenty of more specific ones available. Also linux is inescapable on lemmy anyway :)
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
- [email protected] and maybe [email protected], lemmy.one itself seems to be up in the air. [email protected] says [email protected]. They really seem to be hiding even from another, those tinfoil hats :)
- [email protected]
- Seems like [email protected] and [email protected], various smaller comic-specifc communities as well as [email protected]
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
(Out of the loop? Here’s a thread on lemmy.ml mods and their questionable behaviour)
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Didn’t we do this yesterday?
I think it’s good to have regular outreach. I just subscribed to the linux community from this one.
The other post also has me considering moving my account to a different instance. There were some compelling arguments against centralizing on lemmy.world. (I don’t strongly disagree with the moderation here but I do somewhat disagree with centralizing admin power like on reddit.)
I wouldn’t mind seeing these regularly. But maybe it would be nice to have someone make specific accounts for that purpose so you can easily block them out of your feed.
I wouldn’t mind seeing these regularly.
Feel free to join us on [email protected]
Done! Thank you
I like to think of .world as a introduction point for the fediverse. I think it should be trigger happy with defederation to keep the instance approachable by the mainstream then let people choose other instances based on what they offer.
I moved to lemm.ee cos they d9nt defederate from many people and that aligns with my whole ideology on free speach.
Are our accounts portable yet? Until they are most people (especially contributors used to the fake internet points system) are going to stick with their first account with fake internet points.
U can export and import pfp and followed communities etc but not votes or posts.
Cool, TIL, just curious about what happens to the posts you’ve made, if you delete your old account?
Its the fediverse nothing ever gets deleted its shared across all federated peers its the one downside to moving away from centralisation.
Export/import subscriptions in your settings
There is no karma on Lemmy, no reason to stay attached
I guess this more a top 10 list than our extensive thread
Yeah this is post 65534 on how lemmy.ml is bad, centralizing on lemmy.world is best. Two more and we’ll get a nice round number!
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OpenMW’s official Lemmy community has been on lemmy.ml since 2021, way before lemmy.world existed (and most other instances, too), and way before there was any inter-instance drama. It’s becoming increasingly likely that it’s not going to be a suitable long-term home, but we’d be much happier if we could migrate the existing community rather than start from scratch with a new one. Is there any way to do that yet?
IMO organizations should self-host their official communities. If you’re going to move, it ought to be to something like [email protected].
In addition to the obvious benefits of having admin control/being able to avoid moderation drama imposed by others, it also means you could have more than one community: maybe !openmw for general discussion, plus !modding, !development, etc.
+1, larger community projects really should try to spin up their own Lemmy hosting on whatever infra they already have for message boards
Rather [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], … etc.
So much more flexibility for organizations to build structured communities!
I had a look at your community, do you want to save post and comments?
If not, the easiest way is to announce on the current community where you are going to move, then lock it, so that people indeed move to the new one.
I did it from [email protected] to [email protected], it worked quite well.
but we’d be much happier if we could migrate the existing community rather than start from scratch with a new one. Is there any way to do that yet?
Migrating content over should be doable by a sufficiently tech-savvy admin, subscribers, I don’t think so.
Community migration is coming in future releases of Lemmy but right now it’s not possible.
Principally it is possible if you can iterate over all the posts and comments and inject them into the database of their new home.
That wont work at all. Each subscriber needs to get the update which is not a feature of Lemmy at the moment. Simply injecting posts will only copy over content.
I think the suggestion in whole was “do that specifically for the content, and for the users make a post on the old instance linking to the new, pin it and lock the community so the users have to migrate themselves, since dragging them with you is impossible currently.”
We love to be the home of smaller communities, but for sure, any larger ones should look into running on their own setup. If you need help, drop us a line!
[email protected] has less than 150 subscribers, so it’s definitely not large. We’re already swamped with infrastructure work for the stuff we already self-host, so I don’t think we’ll be running our own Lemmy instance any time soon.
Makes sense!
I enjoy OpenMW and I’m happy to host if you want, although my instance is basically just me and a few friends right now.
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Sounds like programming.dev might be a good fit, or perhaps dbzer0?
Those seem indeed good choices
Last I checked, dbzer0 is unfortunately still federated with the instance where if you name it everyone from it will start calling you a Nazi b/c you don’t want to lick Stalin’s feet. It’s not as much of a problem here, but it’s still something to consider.
Edit: getting targeted by tankies illustrates my point beautifully, so TY everyone who is making my argument for me.
To be specific, we are defed from grad, but not hexbutt or lemmy.marxist-leninist unfortunately.
There’s few enough that I can get by blocking everyone with an account from hexbutt. Haven’t gotten a personal message telling me to kms or a shock link since I moved my main account.
Same here. I will say though, I wish we damn would defed hexbutt lol few or not it’s too damn many.
So just block them.
More like CCP and propaganda enthusiasts
.world liberals are on a propaganda crusade to close off their Zionist echo chambers.
“Yo ho ho evEryBody I don’t agree with is a Zionist yo ho ho”
Kony 2012, amirite Linkerbaan?
The way that I see it, the issue with lemmy ml’s administration and moderation is not quite political in origin. It’s about transparency; and I think that this wall of text that I wrote about how lemmy dot ml handled ani.social shows it well, as the dispute in question was not political in nature. (I can abridge it at request.)
With that out of the way, most of your suggestions boil down to “use lemmy.world instead”. I don’t have anything against LW’s administration, but I think that it’s foolish to concentrate people and activity there even further, it defeats the point of a federation. That instance is already 40% of the MAUs, and hosts the largest comms using Lemmy.
The way that I see it, the issue with lemmy ml’s administration and moderation is not quite political in origin. It’s about transparency
Well it’s really both. The issue is the combination of a number of factors which on their own would be fairly easy to deal with, but put together they are very problematic:
- The admins are political extremists
- lemmy.ml has a very prominent position in the lemmyverse, because they were first and got a headstart
- The admins are actively using their position to heavily police discussion according to their extremist political views. The fact that they’re not being transparent about it is aggravating, but not the root problem.
This prominent position of lemmy.ml is the fundamental difference with the hexbear or lemmygrad situation. Those instances can easily be contained at the user level: most people can just block and ignore them entirely because nothing interesting happens on those instances for non-extremists. Not so with lemmy.ml, which hosts a number of large bona-fide communities.
So I think it’s necessary to make a concerted effort to reduce lemmy.ml’s prominence in the fediverse, so that political extremists can’t put their thumb on the scale to nudge discussion in a certain direction. Part of that effort is raising awareness about lemmy.ml’s nature, which is what this PSA does, but that likely won’t be enough due to network effect. It will take more to get people to move their communities to other instances. If other large instances, like lemmy.world, would block lemmy.ml that would provide a real stimulus for a large amount of people to move away from lemmy.ml.
With that out of the way, most of your suggestions boil down to “use lemmy.world instead”. I don’t have anything against LW’s administration, but I think that it’s foolish to concentrate people and activity there even further
I agree that spreading out more would be desirable, but on the other hand “just use lemmy.world instead of lemmy.ml” is a very simple and practical suggestion to move away from ml.
With that out of the way, most of your suggestions boil down to “use lemmy.world instead”.
It’s where big replacement communities happen to be, that’s all there is to it. Avoiding centralisation is a good thing in general but “tired of .ml mods? Here’s alternatives” isn’t the right time to go for it I think. Maybe the admins can come up with a scheme to round-robin disable community creation or something, to spread things out. Also, community migration is in the pipeline software-wise that would help a lot.
I’m thinking that perhaps the community could/should go a step further, and create another instance to talk about open source and privacy. That would be IMO the best scenario - it would be a great counterpoint to .ml, and it would avoid centralising Lemmy around .world even further.
(I also feel like this might be better even for the devs. Administrative work isn’t exactly pleasing, and if I had to take a guess they mostly maintain that instance because they need it for the software. But that’s just a guess, don’t trust me on that.)
inb4: yes, I know - easier said than done. But I feel like it could be a good option.
FYI, a post on [email protected] about a !privacy community: https://mander.xyz/post/13928027
Lots of good suggestions there. It would be great if @[email protected] mentioned at least [email protected] and [email protected] in the OP.
FYI, an update on the [email protected] post on the !privacy community: https://lemm.ee/post/34088759?scrollToComments=true
Long story short, [email protected] is a nice option, it even has more active users per week than the LW equivalent (376 vs 346)
Added
Thanks!
I think that it’s foolish to concentrate people and activity there even further, it defeats the point of a federation.
It defeats some of the points of federation, but there are still a lot of reasons why federation is still worth doing even if there’s essentially one dominant provider. Not least of which is that sometimes the dominant provider does get displaced over time. We’ve seen it happen with email a few times, where the dominant provider loses market share to upstarts, one of whom becomes the new dominant provider in some specific use case (enterprise vs consumer, mobile vs desktop vs automation/scripting, differences by nation or language), and where the federation between those still allows the systems to communicate with each other.
Applied to Lemmy/kbin/mbin and other forum-like social link aggregators, I could see LW being dominant in the English-speaking, American side of things, but with robust options outside of English language or communities physically located outside of North America. And we’ll all still be able to interact.
Ah yes Lemmy.world should be a giant monolith. Great defederation plan.
Subbed to them all, thanks for this outreach.
The onslaught of fediverse karen posts about lemmy.ml continues.
I mean it’s obviously run by Russia so anything that makes people realise you can’t trust anything that comes out of it is good.
This is just xenophobic
i thank Stalin for embedding bullshit detectord into all his subjugated people (excluding Russians) and trump for improving it✨😊✨
“Everything I don’t like is Russian or Chinese.”
“Here you see one of the prime examples of a lemmy.world liberal turned xenophobe. Swallowing up the hate towards current enemy of the USA and projecting it onto everything they don’t like”
Like I don’t think the .ml admins are remotely in the right, but politically illiterate libs seeing ghosts everywhere is funny af
(or at least it would be if they didn’t generalize everything evil in this world on Russians or Chinese and dominate one of the largest Lemmy instances)- Yours truly, an actually Russian person with a migration background <3
cs-rin-ru
OOTL on this one, what happened on lemmy.ml?
Criticizing China on lemmy.ml goes about as well as evangelizing crypto on awful.systems. Join an instance that shares your values or roll your own. Know your audience or get the hammer.
It’s like a huge chunk of the population out here has never experienced a forum before.
It is far more than just that. Removing comments is one thing, mass-banning from many communities at once despite never even having commented in them at all is another, but the real issue is using database manipulation to delete the log entries as to why the comments were removed after the fact.
Even if unintentional, which strains credulity, this is some spez-level stuff going on, edit: where we have the option to either take what a single person (who does not seem inclined to follow their own stated rules) offers, or else we can leave. Many are choosing the latter, and like the Rexodus, making the situation known to others as well in the process.
“Criticizing China” was merely the spark that lit the match, with the situation offering proof of what apparently people have been suspecting for some time now.
The sad part is that this situation was entirely predictable a year ago.
The Lemmy devs (who also run lemmy.ml) made no secret of who they are and what they believe. Especially dessalines.
I do think they have made a very good piece of software. And I think we’re better off here than on Reddit. At least it is more difficult for one asshole to ruin everything. We have tools to block people and instances, so it doesn’t matter as much even if they’re in charge.
I worry that if lemmy.ml continues to be run the way that it is, then it will bleed over into the software side, and we would be forced to fork Lemmy. So far though, despite running lemmy.ml like assholes, the actual development seems fine – not too different from any other open source project (I only remember that one issue where dessalines completely failed to understand why a user would want to block an instance).
The irony is that, despite creating a tool with what seems like very socialist principles (it gives users & communities a lot of power, and doesn’t centralize that power with one person), those principles are often lost on the devs in favor of authoritarianism. Hence the term: “tankie”.
(I only remember that one issue where dessalines completely failed to understand why a user would want to block an instance).
Oh he knows why, because he IS why. He wants to pretend he doesn’t because he knows people will use it to block the instances that force the politics he enjoys. Nobody is fucking trying to escape star trek lol, it’s him and his ilk and he knows it, and since their goal is evangelism (they have to save our souls with authoritarian dictatorships!) he doesn’t want the evangelism machine shut down.
Fascism is quite capable at achieving its goals - seeing as how it is not limited by any of that pesky “morality” that slows others down.
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If Dessalines is receiving money from the Chinese or other fascist government to develop the Lemmy sourcecode, even if only partially funding the project alongside other funding from e.g. the EU, then I can well understand why he would want to see them kept happy - on top of what he may feel personally.
You people are so lost up your own asses, you will never find yourselves. Conspiratorial nonsense driven by your McCarthyism 2.0 with a complete lack of self awareness.
But I guess I shouldn’t expect anything more from a NATO funded user and instance, right? The Heritage Foundation and CIA signing the checks over here?
Very worrying indeed.
If Dessalines is receiving money from the Chinese or other fascist government to develop the Lemmy sourcecode
What kind of moldy McCarthyite garbage is this? If my Grandmother had wheels she would have been a bike.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
If my Grandmother had wheels she would have been a bike.
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
You need to take a step back. You can’t see the forest for the trees. Our strength is in our diversity.
Hexbear defederated from us as we were discussing whether to vote on defederating them, which was a foregone conclusion. Our users can’t walk into their communities, because they are scared that we might poke a hole in their bubble. Perhaps these boogeymen that you envision are less interested in taking over the world, and more interested in simply having their own space on the internet.
In short, if a user on that instance were to accidentally walk into chapotraphouse (hexbear.net is also not defederated on that instance) and say something that would anger the trolls and get you brigaded (from their discord server), then that’s not the problem of the instance admin of sh.itjust.works to protect their users from such a mistake.
It’s not nice to put words in someone else’s mouth. I will always protect my users against being brigaded. Hence why we were about to defederate hexbear before they beat us to the punch. But we aren’t being brigaded by lemmy.ml.
You actually believe Dessalines is taking money from the Chinese government? Come on dude, that’s absurd. Occam’s razor: he just doesn’t like when people say shit he doesn’t agree with, and petulantly bans them. It’s not a conspiracy, it’s just an internet moderation saga that has played out a million times before.
Just going to address your first paragraph: I sincerely doubt that the devs are receiving money from a fascist government. I simply don’t think Lemmy is big enough yet to be on the radar of e.g., the Chinese government. Yes, maybe there are some Wumaos on here. My understanding is they get better training and autonomy these days, so it’s certainly possible. But most of the comments look more homegrown. I just doubt the Chinese government (or any similar government) would care to the point of trying to pay off devs, and it’s not their MO anyways.
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With the ability to block hexbear.net and lemmygrad.ml, I got cocky and started recommending Lemmy to people that I know irl, however upon thinking it over in greater depth, I am afraid to do that anymore.
I don’t even admit to anyone that I use Lemmy, too much political extremism and propaganda.
Within a couple weeks of signing up for Lemmy I was told I’d “get the wall”, and had to abandon an account because Lemmy.ml users followed me around and downvoted everything I posted (mostly funny memes).
But after I blocked hexbear.net and Lemmygrad.ml, I started to forget that all of that was even there, though I internally made a kind of automatic mental block for Lemmy.ml too (like WHAT!? oh nvm it’s from them…). I shouldn’t forget though, that that is what a new user would see… thus it would be quite unfriendly for me to bring fresh meat to the fascist audience for their amusement.
Listening to instance admins, I just don’t know why they refuse to see those campaigns of brigading as you described happened to you (can you prove it btw, like if the account still exists, and you find a way to view downvotes - does Mbin let you? I tried but maybe it needs a login to do that and it appears greyed out to me without one…), and they say things like “they don’t affect our users” (bullshit, you just perfectly described a situation that I suspect happens all the time where it does), and basically act like bullying and intimidation is not a thing that exists in the world. Like, if you ever say anything to anger someone on lemmy.ml, then that’s your fault and you deserve whatever comes your way after that!?
Tbf, there are instances - e.g. reddthat.com - that disable downvotes entirely. But I don’t want to simply become insensitive to everyone else’s disapproval around me - rather I want the system to work properly so that I am only getting disapproval from people who I either respect or at least are neutral, i.e. not fascists who abuse the system bc they are allowed to by inattentive admins.
If there was an instance somewhere that had defederated from the Big 3 Axis powers - hexbear.net, lemmygrad.ml, and lemmy.ml - I would likely join it, and promote it, and recommend Lemmy to people irl again. Otherwise, I will either leave the Fediverse if it gets too bad, or far more likely simply block lemmy.ml but then only enjoy the Fediverse privately rather than as something I am allowed to share bc of how poor and off-putting the initial user experience is.:-(
It is extremely sad how heavily this aspect hinders our continued growth - even if Reddit does something annoying like finally kills off old-reddit for good this time, are people really going to want to come here, so that instead of being exposed to the right-wing propaganda over there, they can be exposed to the fascism-disguised-as-leftism over here? Fascists are controlling everything, everywhere!?!? But we were supposed to be different, here. At least that’s what we told ourselves.
Agreed. But to be fair, there’s never been a forum like the fediverse before. People are still learning how to navigate this complex, multifaceted space. It’s not just one audience, it’s many different ones.
Thanks!
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I mentioned elsewhere but here’s a copy and paste:
It is far more than just that. Removing comments is one thing, mass-banning from many communities at once despite never even having commented in them at all is another, but the real issue is using database manipulation to delete the log entries as to why the comments were removed after the fact.
Even if unintentional, which strains credulity, this is some spez-level stuff going on, where we have the option to either take what a single person (who does not seem inclined to follow their own stated rules) offers, or else we can leave. Many are choosing the latter, and like the Rexodus, making the situation known to others as well in the process.
“Criticizing China” was merely the spark that lit the match, with the situation offering proof of what apparently people have been suspecting for some time now.
This weeks drama.
Some people got really butt hurt because of some mods in lemmy.ml
to me it was more the straw that broke the camel’s back. every rude and unreasonable interaction i have in here is with someone from .ml. it’s not even about their politics or beliefs, they’re just not pleasant to have around.
the second you try to engage them they throw the real arguments out for pedantry about definitions and using that to call people dumb instead of actually having meaningful discussion about ideas. they’re the worst kind of “it’s not my job to explain it to you, Google it” people too. like, i get the mindset, but it’s just not going to change anyone’s heart or mind. it’s not how you actually win an argument.
every person on Lemmy.ml argues like an annoying 14 year old atheist that just discovered Internet arguments and the think whole Internet is Christian. they’re just shitty to be around and basically never add anything meaningful to a discussion other than “you’re wrong and dumb”
argues like an annoying 14 year old atheist that just discovered Internet arguments and the think whole Internet is Christian
Brilliant. I’m saving this imagery for later.
My experience has similarities and differences - I don’t find .ml users as a whole to be shitty, but if there’s a shitty user, chances are pretty good that they’re from .ml rather than one of the smaller instances, World, or Kbin. And they’re almost always evangelical in nature - as a former evangelical, I recognize the type. The preconception of ultimate and indisputable correctness - they’re often willing to explain and honestly discuss their views, but not acknowledge any serious possible fault or flaw in them. The scriptures are holy, after all.
They swapped the opiate of the people for some synthetic Stalinist stuff.
Fair enough, is definitely not my experience and I have an account on .ml for about 1 year.
I could argue that I see more trolls on lemmy.world than any other instance, but that obvious: is the larger instance but probably the ratio troll/normal people is more or less the same than any other instance.
they’re the worst kind of “it’s not my job to explain it to you, Google it” people too.
That’s a behaviour that I do not see ever on the communities that I participate(basically technology and linux)
I wonder if where you have your account affects how you notice where the trolls are from? Like I don’t notice trolls coming from .world much because I just see a username, where a troll from .ml is
username@lemmy.ml.That makes a lot of sense.
I see more trolls on lemmy.world than any other instance
Maybe they see your ml account and hate you by association because of abuse they’ve suffered from other ml accounts
yeah, I’ll agree. the tech communities in there are not like that. it’s the political ones.
an example: they’ll say something off the wall about the Ukraine war and American support for it, you’ll reply with something that mentions the Americans that support and don’t support it among many other things, they’ll dog pile you for using the word “liberal” with the common American definition because apparently linguistic drift is illegal. theynever get off the subject and then never actually tell you their definition and how it differs.
that’s every political discussion with anyone from .ml involved. if it was just their own communities it would be fine, but it’s that they go out and do that with every community that doesn’t defederate.
imagine it this way; what if “the Donald” had broken off Reddit later and made one of the largest lemmy instances. they were perfectly cordial when you were in their funny dog pictures community, but they constantly act like trump supporters in every political thread.
obviously we’d all defederate with them. very few world even question that at this point.that’s what this is. they’re just loud, and extreme, and annoying on this one subject. we’d rather not see the Linux main community hold us captive against excising the problem.
To be fair I did have a decent run in with some mods on .ml as well and I am not a fan of their practices.
I do however think the public shaming and calling for boycott is so wrong its not even funny. We‘re still talking about the people who made this here possible. Especially the derogatory use of the word „tankie“ is unacceptable imo.
I‘d prefer if people started debates and tried to find common ground instead. For the reason of decentralization I would like less popular „versions“ of the communities to thrive.
But the mods don’t allow that kind of discourse, that’s the whole problem.
Also, tankies are advocating for a society where I and those like me would be killed. If that’s not worthy of a derogatory term then what is?
tankies are advocating for a society where I and those like me would be killed.
Where and why would you be targeted by them?
When they seized power as happened in Russia, China, and many other countries, they consistently murdered or enslaved dissidents. And they defend such practices to this day. I am an outspoken dissident in my current society and surely would be in their imagined future as well.
If that’s not worthy of a derogatory term then what is?
Nothing is. Shaming and harassing others is not the solution. Instead we should let them advocate for whatever their ideal is. The same we let nazis have their own little „reich“ in their own homes. If they start breaking rules they get the same backlash as anyone else. Dont make it about „identity“.
Its dehumanizing and leads to hate and violence. Same as with psychopaths, narcissists, pedophiles, etc. These people are living creatures just as we are. Some of them are sick, some of them are dangerous. That does not mean they can be treated as lesser.
I acknowledge that tankies are humans with rights but I don’t acknowledge that those rights include not being called an accurate but slightly demeaning term that they don’t like. Particularly because their preferred terms for themselves are inaccurate.
Like I’m not going to stop calling fascists by that name even if they prefer to be called freedom-loving patriots or something. And I personally see the two ideologies as having a lot of similarities.
I agree with you on both accounts. Their preferred choices arent the same as pronouns and I think both authoritarian ideologies are similar and dangerous.
My point was solely that namecalling, derogatory words or slurs arent doing anything for anyone. They‘re just helping others hate us and us do unspeakable things to them and vice versa.
Dehumanizing is a precursor for genocide for a reason and that is why I think its a bad idea. Of course its just my opinion and I‘m perfectly fine if you disagree with it.
No, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and I do not fully disagree. But I think context matters. I like tanky because it helps people understand the dangers of the ideology more than other alternatives like communist or Marxist-Leninist or whatever. Is there more danger of violence against tankies or that their ideology may grow and cause violence against others? Right now I perceive the latter to be a bigger issue, and I don’t see any real risk of harm coming to them, at least in the social circles where my words have influence.
If there was a movement that sought to do physical harm to them (outside of a defensive context) then I would weigh that appropriately in my language. The term is a tool of persuasion and I deem that persuasion more important than any risk of dehumanization, which I do oppose and recognize as harmful.
But that’s what’s happening now? They broke their own rules - not merely removing comments, but also mass-banning from communities people have never commented in before, and then deleting the mod log entries afterwards. The former is not ideal but expected, the middle is… extremely excessive and warrants all of this right there alone, but the latter bumps the whole matter up significantly to be outright disingenuous, so that “that side” making its case is no longer expected to yield any results, given the not only manipulative but outright deceptive practices that have been (allegedly) proven.
I do worry about the use of a pejorative term though. In thinking about it more, I waffle back and forth between it should never be done, vs. whether someone can “earn” that badge not by holding a belief but by their actions?
We should definitely respect their contributions to the code and actually I would guess that they may legit believe that what they are doing (supporting China by suppression of alternate viewpoints, using any means necessary including ones that violate and abuse their own code of conduct) is right. But that does not make it so.
This is also far from the first time .ml has been accused of manipulating the mod logs or federation database. It’s really just the first time they’ve been caught red handed, but I have definitely found a handful of my band not showing up in mod logs for whatever reason, but didn’t get a screenshot of the original log entry.
Thank you very much for sharing that history - that really helps me understand why people are not taking this seriously. If they “feel like” they have heard it all before, then they give their rote responses from the past, not realizing how things have changed.
And too there’s GIGO, where people that should have been banned were banned, but it’s still not a terribly persuasive happenstance to convince people who cannot handle the subtleties involved between the outcome vs. the method by which it was arrived at.
Google at one point was not evil, and people warning us not to put trust in them to make Android were solidly ignored. Apple, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, all of it was the same. And look at us now. FAAFO. Well, now we’re seeing firsthand some very few glimpses of how bad it could ultimately get, for those companies.
But for lemmy.ml we are still in the early stages, where people are saying “but they write the code” (irrelevant), and “they aren’t evil” (we have proof, NOW), and “the Fediverse is still too small, let it grow first” (a horrible idea - for one thing it won’t grow as much this way and for another if it did then having so many communities held hostage on that instance would be even more difficult to fix than now). Oh, and another one I hear quite often is “lemmy.world has problems too”, which I’m not even going to dignify with a comment about. But the big ones are “only the admins are bad - not the users” (partly true but not entirely and quite frankly… if YOU want to ignore all the warning signs then that doesn’t mean that *I* should be forced to stay behind with you as well - particularly when user-level blocks are NOT the same as instance-level ones); and “but some of the biggest communities are there” (I mean, so what, go back to Reddit if you want that but… okay it is a more fair objection tbf).
I doubt many places will defederate lemmy.ml right now… but on the other hand, I see preparations paving the way for that to happen by removing the existing roadblocks, most notably https://reddthat.com/post/20197120. Though that too will require more than a little effort reaching out to each and every single community group of mods to begin the discussion about moving their communities, one by one. This fight against authoritarianism will be long, costly, and may never truly be won - e.g. even if Lemmy.ml gets defederated, the users of hexbear, lemmygrad, and it may simply hide out as alts elsewhere? - but it seems to me to be worth fighting? Though I may need to find at least one instance that actually does defederate from those Big Three Axis powers to use in the meantime.
Thank you 🙏 for your own efforts in combating these (mal)practices.
not merely removing comments, but also mass-banning from communities people have never commented in before
So moderating their instance?
and then deleting the mod log entries afterwards
Where’s the evidence for this? I didn’t see that in the original post.
You are correct that it is not in the OP wording itself, but it came out as part of the discussion i.e. it is in the comment section if you want to read through that.
It is now getting significantly harder to find the comments I saw originally as lemmy’s UI decides now to hide comments by default, bc there are so very many on that thread, but to get you started, one is https://lemmy.world/comment/10461570, and another is https://lemm.ee/comment/12369094.
Even if the former issue was the result of that new feature being tested out on Lemmy.ml first (and perhaps having bugs causing issues with the mod log), the other issue remains that the modding in such occurrences is accused of being rather… “over-zealous”. As in why remove someone from a meme community, if they merely made a comment about China in a political community somewhere else on the same instance? What does someone being (potentially) incorrect in their facts have to do with being able to interact with people in a meme community that they have (reputedly) never commented in even so much as once? (presumably they must have interacted with it somehow, according to the wording of the new mod feature, so probably they did vote)
They’re still doing it now.
If you hear of an instance that has defederated from them, I would be interested to know. Otherwise, this OP at least seems to be helping prepare people for that eventuality even if not yet happening now.
I agree that if that happened (which I dont have the time nor the nerve atm) its very scary.
Most likely, as always on the internet, the truth is they have certain beliefs which are problematic and triggering, and they are programmers, not weathered social workers who can solve heated conflicts.
And then comes the most important part: they have not engaged in these alleged practices all the time so it is likely that bad coincidences came together and brought on the perfect storm on them/us.
I stand by my initial statement. We can condemn the actions, we can harshly disagree on ideology but we should refrain from dehumanizing them.
Have a good one. :)
Well, more to the point, it’s too late for us to test this all now. We’d have to spin up our own instances, watch all of the signals coming out, and compare those signals to what they used to be vs. then become. As someone did - with screenshots demonstrating the before vs. after. But we cannot now go back in time to confirm that particular instance, we’d have to catch a future occurrence.
Unless you meant the mass removals - but people have been complaining about that for quite awhile now iirc? This is not an isolated incident, by any means. For months now I have been defending Lemmy.ml to various random commenters across the Fediverse, citing how different it is from lemmygrad.ml and hexbear.net (and truthfully, the situation is quite different, here being isolated more if not exclusively to the admins), but lately I have given up b/c the collective weight of all of these actions seems indefensible to me now, as a pattern of behavior.
I actually have compassion for them - as you say they are programmers not social workers, and if they truly want their goals of FOSS acceptance and socialist world-views to be exported around the world, then they are working against their own goals but do not see that. Put another way, they may truly believe the local Chinese propaganda, but in order to export their ideals to a global audience, it needs to be tempered with a greater mix of acceptance that people exposed to more Western-style media are accustomed to (where we are allowed to watch things like videos rather than be forced to read state-sponsored bulletins telling us what to believe).
But anyway, the removal reason is far from the point - it is the manner of the removal that concerns us so greatly. But sure, start up a dialog with them if you wish - you sound like a good person to initiate such, since you go to lengths to understand their POV:-).
Btw do you have any suggestions as an alternative to “tankie”? I am not 100% convinced that it is fully “dehumanizing”, but I do see where it is somewhere along the spectrum towards that goal. Would “fascist” or “authoritarian” work better?
Especially the derogatory use of the word „tankie“ is unacceptable imo.
There is no non-derogatory use of the word tankie. It’s been derogatory since the Prague and Hungarian uprisings, when it was coined.
Even if one were to come up with a new term that does not have negative connotations it would immediately soak up such connotations because it refers to counter-revolutionaries.
Tbf if I don’t call them “tankies” I’m going to call them “authoritarian evangelist pieces of human shit.” They can take their pick I suppose.
Yep, the mod got way overboard in the situation that started all this shit. Banning a user in almost all lemmy.ml communities is too much.
It’s still going on.
You can’t debate with .ml mods. They ban you if you disagree.
Thanks for sharing your opinion. I have made different experiences. You can debate them and they wont ban you if you act like an adult. What most mods (me included) wont accept is excessive drama, aggressive behavior, etc. obviously people make mistakes, some are outright dicks. But the generalization seems very far fetched.
I’ve seen the modlogs. There are mods there that ban people and use “Lib” as a reason. And other just use “rule 1” as a reason- which as we all know, is just a vague catch-all for “shit we don’t like.”
Besides that, a mod was recently busted banning people from communities they never even posted in. Just as recently as three hours ago- one of the idiot mods there banned someone from 45 communities.
That place is a shithole. I stand by it.
That place is a shithole. I stand by it.
And thats your right. I dont object to that.
I‘m saying thats not a general rule for these or any mods/admins. I have personally had discussions with them and with some I‘m not on the best of terms. Yet I haven’t been banned anywhere from posting. Furthermore, i have seen a lot of posts and comments „just pointing out“ stuff and using derogatory words and populist language. I cant say I‘d watch that indefinitely myself.
Btw stating a rule as a ban reason does not seem suspicious to me. Feel free to disagree.
Okay man. I’m not going to argue with you. You can check the mod logs yourself if you wish. Nearly everyone that gets banned from there is banned for the reason “rule 1” and no other explanation.
It’s not there to be disagreed with. It’s a fact of the matter.
Especially the derogatory use of the word „tankie“ is unacceptable imo.
Not a fan either.
I‘d prefer if people started debates and tried to find common ground instead. For the reason of decentralization I would like less popular „versions“ of the communities to thrive.
Are you on [email protected]? That’s a topic we discuss quite often there
The views of .ml mods have not affected me. I don’t really check my subscription feed, only /all or /top->day, therefor im still exposed to all those other communities.
The only instances that I’ve noticed are missing are porn related, and as an asexual, I don’t have an interest in them. If I did, I could just visit a different site, like pornhub or w/e
Not all .ml users are tankies, or communist, or foss enthusiasts. I’m just a guy who likes memes and tech
It affects people who think that Lemmy.ml is the default instance, as it says itself and people say that any instance is fine to join.
It also affects people in the batshit insane comments that come from people on that instance, like lemmygrad.ml and hexbear.net, that occur with noticeably higher frequency than from other places.
It also affects people on that instance who talk as if into a void with many people blocking their instance but they don’t even know that. And that effect will increase over time.
It lowers traffic on the Fediverse, decreasing overall engagement, and drives people away from it altogether. It also lowers the likelihood that you can recommend to people irl to check out the Fediverse - when THAT stuff (e.g. defense of genocide) is seen it tends to turn people off who aren’t used to it or who are tech or culture savvy enough to know how to handle it.
So it does affect you, I promise, even if not directly, and over the next few months will do so increasingly as your instance turns into more of an echo chamber than it has been in the past, as more people block it either individually or at an instance level.
Agreed that many of the users are regular people who are just innocently getting swept up in all of this due to the actions of the admins. Just like users of Reddit were when spez did his power flex moves.
You might want to at least make an alt somewhere else so that you get some experiences that your .ml account increasingly will start to lack.
I hear you. When I first joined .ml, they were pressing for people NOT to join it. To create their own instances so that .ml didn’t become a central entity, and get overwhelmed with users. The latter did occur during the reddit exodus.
I also agree that they can curate and manipulate the instance to their ideals, which will limit casual users and their reach.
I don’t feel like I’m being secluded, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. I have seen hate for .ml users and hexbear users, and I really don’t get it. The fediverse shouldn’t be segregating users based on what instance they’re in. That’s like saying all US citizens are awful because they live there.
I don’t feel like I’m being secluded, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. I have seen hate for .ml users and hexbear users, and I really don’t get it. The fediverse shouldn’t be segregating users based on what instance they’re in. That’s like saying all US citizens are awful because they live there.
I agree with you for Lemmy.ml
I’m not so sure about hexbear, people don’t randomly end up there
I did. I stumbled upon a post to chapotraphouse while browsing the All feed from startrek.website that had not defederated it at the instance level. And similarly I found a politics (or maybe it was a memes) community on lemmygrad.ml that same way too! It seems neither of those are defederated from that server still. And on discuss.online while lemmygrad.ml is defederated, hexbear.net is not.
Probably you meant people don’t sign up with a login on those instances randomly, but I thought I would add the above perspective at least - that anyone across the Fediverse can get there randomly, if the defederation is not at the instance level.
The fediverse shouldn’t be segregating users based on what instance they’re in.
If an instance is full of authoritarian propaganda and extreme censorship then actual users should leave.
Right, so we should unblock the nazi instances like exploding heads because they have one cool guy there maybe?
Wait, you need a passport to leave .ml and make a new acct, and have to endure a long process and spend thousands of dollars to become a citizen there? Oh so it’s a lot less like people trapped in the US than you thought I guess.
Man I’m gonna level with you, I’d prefer if most people on those instances weren’t assholes causing problems everywhere on lemmy since all they are is brigadiers, but since they are, you will be associated with them by being one even just in name. Unfortunate, but human nature.
I don’t feel like I’m being secluded
You probably aren’t… yet, but you will become thus, increasingly over time.
For the past half a year I have defended lemmy.ml, saying that its users are nowhere near as bad as hexbear.net or lemmygrad.ml (just… visit them, you’ll see fairly quickly what they are all about). And that much is still true - the users are quite often innocent.
Though not 100% so, and now this with the admins, I will block lemmy.ml soon. I have already started blocking some of its communities, like all the politically-themed memes were simply not fun to keep appearing in my feed, unlike the many other meme communities scattered throughout the fediverse. I am missing out on basically nothing but contention, which has noticeably improved my experience of the Fediverse.
Yes, I am throwing out some babies along with the bathwater, but I am okay with that. The point is to foster a sense of enjoyment and peace, rather than constantly argue with people who are not engaging in good faith to begin with. I left Reddit for good reason, and believe it or not I would have left it regardless of all of spez’s bullshit.
Imagine my dismay when coming to the Fediverse, I make the mistake of ONE comment in chapotraphouse, and I got like a hundred replies of the most batshit insane, derogatory, bad-mannered and bad-faithed “arguments”, which lasted for WEEKS long after I stopped responding. I was being “dunked on”, which they LOVE, and which - apparently, much to my dismay upon finding out - is the literal purpose of that community. I almost left the entire Fediverse after that.
Well, it did not help that I made the same mistake upon replying to a comment in some political community on lemmygrad.ml. It was those two events together that almost made me leave. However, fortunately for me Lemmy v0.19.3 came out just as I was mulling that issue over, so I blocked those two instances, and now I am as happy as a clam. Honestly this issue with Lemmy.ml is nowhere near as bad as those two instances. But it’s still not great, it still impacts people - e.g. it will impact you far more than me - and it will hurt all of us if we cannot recommend to irl people to come to the Fediverse, b/c they are likely to see that stuff and be put off by it. And therefore all the content that they may have offered for our consumption is gone along with it.
An analogy might be: how much fecal matter is okay to appear in your food? We can spend a large amount of time curating our own experiences here to avoid that, but how likely is a non-Linux-using average person who might want to leave Reddit and come here to be even willing to do that, before they can start enjoying their interactions here? That “shit” demeans us all.
That’s like saying all US citizens are awful because they live there.
I suggest a different analogy instead. Crime in the USA in general has gone down substantially in recent decades, but let’s say that you wanted to walk the streets of NYC in the 80s-early 90s. It’s not “just b/c they are there”, but rather “crime is MUCH more likely to occur there, than other places”. If you choose to go there, you are making a probabilistic bet that you will survive the encounter. Maybe you will… or maybe your child will become Batman after you get brutally murdered in front of him, but either way, past some threshold it becomes a foolish bet to have chanced it, in return for what gain even?
You and I do not get to decide upon the preferences of others. Many will leave Lemmy altogether, rather than put up with this stuff. I at least will block Lemmy.ml, but that leaves the newest and least aware and therefore most vulnerable people to still have to deal with it. In the meantime, we are conversing about it, letting people know about the problems that we all face, together.
I have noticed the high level of political memes and threads and don’t care for it. I didn’t understand why they were so common, I thought we were all trying to get away from politics.
I will try a different instance and report back.
Possibly a good comparison could be [email protected] vs. the two alternatives mentioned in the OP - I really wanted to keep the former, but politics kept creeping in and just made the experience un-fun so eventually I blocked it all. I thought perhaps the mods were simply lazy, I had little idea of the systemic issues across lemmy.ml altogether.
So I decided to go to sopuli.xyz. Viewing their all/hot is not much different than what I have now. However Sopuli is closer to what I expected .ml to be. There are some instances with zero defederations (completely unsensored), but I’m happy not seeing porn, discrimination, or ads in their feed. @[email protected]
I thought we were all trying to get away from politics.
First of all, why would you think that? Second of all, everything is political so that is literally impossible. And third of all, only centrists who want things to stay exactly as they are, because they feel they are are benefiting from the status quo, ever say such things.
- JOIN US! Comicbooks is slow, I’d like it to grow so I can discuss less popular creator owned comics, at the moment it’s mostly some news posts, my list posts, some super hero discussion, and some dude who thinks internet comic strips are “comic books” (but nobody has corrected them because they seem nice enough lol).
some dude who thinks internet comic strips are “comic books
Is that me? Ha ha
Naw lol the one you posted is at least a nightwing/starfire thing, it’s related. But you’re cool too!
I meant whoever posted the one about the comet passing earth a little while back haha.
You’ve never seen superfans print out and bind a webnovel, huh 😛
Lol technically correct, the best kind of correct!
Naw for real though I just think personally that stuff belongs in comicstrips or one of the more apt communities for it, and comicbooks is specifically for Comic Books proper (not just Marvel/DC but also Image, IDW, DSTLRY, Massive, etc, the more creator owned and independent side.) I think this because quite frankly “Comic Books proper” doesn’t really fit in those communities dedicated to strips, and I’d like a space for it specifically when I’m looking for that stuff specifically. My opinions on the matter are far from “the rules” though, it is certainly allowed to post them.
This is also not to say I don’t like strips, I do very much and am in most of those communities as well! It really just boils down to organization for me lol, may be slightly OCD.
Also, did you check [email protected] ? As a regular poster, that might interest you
Just subscribed!
Nice! There is this post about being the only one posting to a community that might interest you: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/19187513 (and if you want the full version with 90 comments: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/11491827)
Thanks I’ll check it out! But also I’m not the only poster there, there’s you, Jordan, and a few others too! It’s a small community but it is a community haha. I’d like to see it grow but I’m also thankful for you guys who are already there!
Indeed!
Is it possible to migrate my account to another Lemmy instance? Or would I have to start over?
You can migrate your subscriptions in the settings (import / export as a JSON file, easier to do on a computer).
You would lose your comments and posts history, but you can refer to the old account on your new account so that people curious would know it’s you. Also, if you keep the same name and avatar, most of the people wouldn’t notice.
Interesting list
For another thread on this topic: https://lemmy.world/post/16235541
About [email protected], I posted on [email protected]: https://lemmy.world/post/16273266, the instance and community might be a bit abandoned.
For comics, isn’t [email protected] an option?
privacyguides does seem to have a decent number of active users, comicstrips seems to be more specialised than comics.
privacyguides does seem to have a decent number of active users,
I agree, that’s what I mentioned in that thread. But still, we might want to see if the instance is still managed, or if it will go bust like lemmy.film or iusearch.fyi
[email protected] content is very similar to [email protected].
The more specific one is [email protected]
Sounds reasonable, edited a bit.
Nice, thanks!
The world news community on .ml is just Russian and Chinese propoganda.
And .world is liberal amerikkkan bs then?
(not saying that either one is right btw)
Clearly the American point of view is neutral, the default, and the truth, so it doesn’t count as propaganda.
Why are you being downvoted? Is it not obvious enough that your comment was sarcasm?
I had to do a double take because this sentiment is prevalent throughout lemmy.world and other instances.
It’s not even about which view is right or neutral. On .world posts and comments critical of the US aren’t mass censored like .ml does with posts critical of China, Russia or the former USSR.
That’s true to some extent. I don’t agree with hard censorship like that, but there is also the risk of getting astroturfed and brigaded like reddit, which had a clear example as far back as 2013 where Eglin Air Force Base, FL showed up as “most addicted city”. The goal of censorship is to give your own opinions more space, so I’m not exactly upset if other instances are moderated in a different way when there are plenty of other instances moderated in a different way. The fediverse offers plenty of space.
mbmb forgot the USA is the universal truth in nation-state form at the centre of the known universe/“international community” lmao
I’m completely lost. Can someone fill me on what the hell is going on?
Lemmy.ml is full of tankie creeps, and there’s a big debate about defederating from it. One of the big talking points is that ml has a bunch of popular communities. These are alternatives to them.
Are people actually that serious about defederating from Lemmy.ml?
Are people actually that serious about defederating from Lemmy.ml?
Yes. I avoid Lemmy.ml communities like the plague, but because I don’t feel there’s intentional hostility from the community towards outsiders, unlike Grad or Hexbear, I don’t think I’m in favor. I do understand the underlying thought process. It’s difficult to ‘join hands’ with a community, however otherwise normal, which is run by genocide deniers who very clearly use their power over the community to push a narrative of genocide denial.
genocide deniers who very clearly use their power over the community to push a narrative of genocide denial.
You are the premier genocide denier I’ve run into on this platform, you’re more concerned about the Democrats election chances than the people they help kill.
what?
I think I made it pretty clear, but when it comes to Israel’s genocide the above poster is outspoken defending the Democrats supporting it, but when its US state enemies they’re getting extremely mad about anyone not repeating the US state department line on things.
Ah ok so this was more about post history. I don’t want to get involved there :D I just didn’t get it without context
You are the premier genocide denier I’ve run into on this platform
Because I want less genocide instead of more? How curious.
Are you planning for voting for any political parties which are directly aiding active genocides in the near future?
Biden is the only one circumventing congress to get bombs sent to Palestinian refugee camps so far
People who use Palestinian bodies to push their political agenda are co-opting genocide. Fuck all the way off.
Clearly the same standards don’t apply to pushing the political opinions of lemmyworld, hence all these threads.
It rules being able to just look in a database what has you so mad
You clearly just hate dissent and want an MSNBC bubble
The thing is, as far as users and communities go lemmy.ml is pretty much a general purpose instance like lemmy.world, but it is controlled by political extremists who are using their admin position to put their thumb on the scale to push discussion in a certain direction.
Pug Jesus summarized it well enough. I didn’t think I’d have a stronger stance on it, but I am strongly in favor of defederating. I also have a very strong personal opposition to MLs in general, since I essentially regard them as traitors due to the faction’s pattern of conduct.
Pugjesus is Joe Bidens strongest warrior though, everyone’s a tankie by that guys standards.
Yes anyone that doesn’t throat putin’s cock is a liberal, we get it.
That got weirdly sexual pretty quick - are you trying to be homophobic?
Since when is throating cock only a homosexual act? That’s actually kinda bigoted to suggest.
And yes, metaphor can be very difficult to understand. I’ll try to speak more literally so you can keep up. Not defending an authoritarian dictator doesn’t automatically make someone a liberal.
Read this thread: https://lemmy.world/post/16211417
@[email protected] might be interesting to mention the thread above in the OP, as people might be out of the loop
Done.
Thanks!
Thanks. Clear up a few things.
New users to Lemmy.world are surprised Lemmy.ml has Marxists, so they are saber rattling yet again. This time they may actually go the full length and defederate, but that remains to be seen.
Just a disclaimer for normal ppl:
What op is referring to as “Marxists” are (what the irl leftists call) revisionists who think that Marxism is somehow compatible with bourgeois counter revolution (PRC after Deng, under whom the crackdowns in Tiananmen happened btw) and “anti-american” imperialism (what Russia and modern-day China are doing militarily (mostly Russia) and financially (mostly China))Nobody believes the PRC is economically Socialist, just that it has a Dictatorship of the Proletariat and keeps their bourgeoisie in check, which is in the eyes of the CPC a safer option than shutting out the entire world like the USSR did, leading to its collapse. I don’t think anyone is calling the PRC full Socialism, not even the CPC itself.
As for Imperialism, most people talking about it are using Lenin’s definition, a sort of International Bourgeois/Proletarian system, not just expansionism or international trade.
There is no DoP left in the "P"RC. At best it’s social democracy combined with one of the most brutally efficient capitalist systems of exploitation to date (which from a purely liberal economic pov is quite impressive, but so is Japan)
(following quotes are not meant as an appeal to authority, but rather me using wording which put it better than I ever could)
'Politics cannot but have precedence over economics. To argue differently means forgetting the ABC of Marxism.’ ‘Opportunism does not extend the recognition of class struggle to what is the cardinal point, to the period of transition from capitalism to Communism, to the period of the overthrow and the complete abolition of the bourgeoisie.’
(Lenin, The State and Revolution)Mao Zedong also pointed out:
“Never forget classes and class struggle.” “Stability and unity do not mean writing off class struggle; class struggle is the key link and everything else hinges on it.”
This was directly levelled at Deng Xiaoping, whom he assessed as follows:
“This person does not grasp class struggle; he has never referred to this key link. Still his theme of ‘white cat, black cat’, making no distinction between imperialism and Marxism. This tells us that both production and modernization will go astray if we abandon the key link of class struggle, and if we reject the correct, Marxist line and the socialist road. If we follow his revisionist line, we can never develop production but will only sabotage it; we can never achieve socialist modernization but will only degenerate into capitalism!”
(Notes: “production” as in ‘socialist mode of production’ and “modernization” as in ‘socialist modernization of society’)Yes, I’m aware, Deng is absolutely a revisionist. I was explaining what most Marxists at least on Lemmy believe about China.
Personally, I understand why they went down that road after the fall of the USSR, but it remains to be seen if this will actually end up being the correct play. I think it would have been better had they taken a more hard-line stance in favor of Marxism than Revisionism, but we are now so far from that point that the entire last 35 years of global history would have been completely different.
yeah, alt-hist stuff isn’t all that productive
the thing I meant was, that the ppl who defend China as well as China itself, have forsaken Marxism and should not be called that
it means a complete revision of the understanding of class struggle (being replaced with class collaborationism and often the CPC taking up the role of the bourgeoisie) and thus dialectical/historical materialism
which is why I am referring to them as “social democrats at best”
100% agreed on Alt-History, no questions from me on that.
However, I do want to flip this around just a bit, for the sake of a thought experiment. For critical supporters of the PRC, it seems that opposing US hedgemony and creating a multipolar world is the primary means by which Lenin’s Imperialism can be fought in our present moment, even if we lack any hardline Marxist powers.
In your eyes, what should these Marxists instead be supporting? The US? It seems everyone is agreed on supporting the Global South, but when it comes to countries with any real influence on global geopolitics, are all of them bad and unworthy of even critical support, generally, or is there a force you believe is on somewhat of the right track, as a Marxist?
This isn’t a gotcha, I am genuinely interested in this conversation.
lmao
Which part?
